This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The spacex IPO has happened and made Elon Musk a Trillionaire.
There are probably hundreds of potential topics from this story, feel free to go off on your own tangents.
What I am interested in is that this is a company that is building real world things, and not fake internet shit. It feels like a lot of new wealth and investment in America comes from and is directed to the internet. I think one of the main reasons has been that large investors are generally play-it-safe followers. They see which companies are newly striking it rich: Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, Google, Apple, etc. And they are happy to invest in copy-cats.
I'm hoping the spacex IPO has a similar effect. That investors start chasing new copy cats. But this time copy-cats of spacex rather than copy cats of facebook or google.
From what I can gather, the consensus on the left side of the political spectrum in the USA is that it's a great injustice that there exists a trillionaire in a world where there exists poverty. Now, there are a lot of implicit beliefs and values mixed up in such a judgment, such as the false notion that it would be possible to fix world poverty or even USA "poverty" with a trillion dollars in cash and that it would be possible for Musk to convert his net worth into a trillion dollars in cash (at its limit, people literally seem to believe that Musk has a bank account somewhere with 13 digits on its balance, claiming that he's "hoarding" the wealth, as if that wealth isn't actually in the form of various companies that are functioning to produce and sell things right now). It seems like it's mostly driven by a hatred of inequality and a desire to collect one's pound of flesh.
Which I think is perfectly reasonable. One of the many reasons Musk is able to have such a high net worth is the fairly dependable capitalist system that we all uphold and partake in, and demanding that he pay the government a fee for the sole reason to appease our envy, even at the cost to overall prosperity and wellbeing of humanity might not be ideal, but it's not unreasonable.
But, as many people have pointed out, Musk - and any billionaire - has most of his assets in productive companies, and the productive nature of those companies is what makes them so valuable, and so liquidating them to put more money in the government coffers would both be logistically very difficult and also likely destroy a lot of value. If the government were to take shares away from Musk to take partial ownership of his companies, that would also likely destroy a lot of value, both because some of the value is tied to Musk being the owner and because the government is likely to have lower ownership skills than the typical private owner. Furthermore, since Musk's - and, again, almost any billionaire's - net worth is defined mostly by the market price of shares of his companies, which are volatile, it's difficult to even figure out the correct value of his net worth to use for any sort of wealth tax.
So I'm left wondering what sort of wealth tax could be implemented, in a way that doesn't destroy too much value while still being meaningful enough to appease the envious (though some may argue that the limit does not exist for that one). It would probably have to take some sort of rolling average of net worth over a period of time, the tax would have to be something like in the form of non-voting shares, and perhaps we'd need to create a ton of new government bureaucracy jobs to manage the logistics of all of that. In effect making almost any company above a certain value automatically partially nationalized. It would have to be progressive without some sharp cutoff point so that there's no single value that any company owner is motivated to keep under. We'd also likely need to have laws around giving shares to family members in order to skirt around the wealth tax - either that or just accept the creation of essentially an aristocracy where successful company owners keep sharing their wealth with more and more family members while still being de facto owners in order to minimize their wealth tax burden. Along with a bunch more government jobs to enforce this.
Of course, I heavily doubt that any of the collected money would have meaningful impact on solving poverty. On net, with the additional government costs and the reduced income tax collections from the employees of these companies, it might actually leave less money to fight poverty than just the current system as-is. But that's not the point, the point is to take money away from really rich people.
I'm not an economist, so I'm probably missing a lot of things. Does anyone have any good ideas for how the USA could implement this without causing too much economic harm? Would be especially good if it could stand up to Constitutional scrutiny as well (of course, the Constitution can always be changed or ignored, but both tend to create a lot more friction and pain than otherwise).
Cynically, I think you're thinking about this all completely wrong, in that you are taking the words of the envious as you call them at face value. Ultimately, for these people, the point is not to take money from really rich people (ostensibly to help the poor), no, that is incidental; the point is to hurt really rich people. They are Marxists, and these are their eternal class enemies. As always, "to help the poor" is the cover story, many couldn't actually care less about the well being of those they claim to fight for beyond what they offer as a political tool in the realm of realpolitik. This is how democrats in Minnesota can get millions of dollars for "educating underprivileged children", clearly without giving a rat's ass whether it was actually used for this purpose.
There is no say-when point in $ where they will be appeased; a well reasoned new tax, a number of 0's off Elon's net worth, where they'll say "oh yeah that's actually fair, we're good". That point is not a dollar value or a percentage, it's the point where their social media fueled class bloodlust against the capitalist feels quenched; Elon can't just be a bit less wealthy on paper and that's it, Elon must suffer in some way. Be brought down a peg; humiliated, if need be. Any amount of money taken that still allows Elon his ability to exist as an influential public figure will not be enough. You're trying to apply a rational, economic solution to a religious problem. They aren't "too rich", they are infidels to Marxism, and must repent or be crushed.
Honestly, Elon and the rest's best bet would probably be to employ some kind of Br'er Rabbit strategy. I think the amount of humility required to allow the Twitter Marxists to even think they won is beyond them though.
I agree that there is no such thing as appeasement for the each the rich types. There are enough marxists that I've met in real life that seem to want CEOs and the wealthy lined up against a wall and shot. Their idea of "compromise" is to simply confiscate all their wealth and imprison them for the rest of their lives in some Siberian equivalent work encampment. These people were joyous to hear about the United Health Care CEO being gunned down in the street. They were also joyous to hear that it had made other CEOs worried for their lives.
The only people like this that I have seen mellow out got married, had kids, and held down a good solid career for a decade. Which obviously has nothing to do with the policies they espoused, but it was never about policies in the first place. Its gripes about their life situation disguised as a policy gripe. And just like you can't reason someone out of position they didn't reason themselves into, you can't appease a life situation gripe with their claimed policy solution.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link