This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Your friendly neighborhood hapa, reporting in (though I hear 'wasian' is the new hip term).
I grew up with more or less perfect OPOL i.e. my mom only spoke to me in Mandarin and my dad only spoke to me in English. I speak the former with no discernable [foreign] accent, but with a limited vocabulary and reading skills. I would say my level is quite a bit higher than the average 2nd generation Chinese-American's. Family dinners growing up were some combination of your possibilities 3 and 4. My mom would address me directly in Mandarin and my dad directly or myself and my dad collectively in English, and I would address my parents collectively in English, but my mom directly in Mandarin. There were essentially always 3 conversations happening in parallel: one between me and my mom in Mandarin that my dad didn't understand more than a few words of, one between me and my dad in English that was somewhat above my mom's English level and about subjects in which she had little interest, and a third collective discussion in simpler English.
I'd say that this arrangement can be thought of as one instance of Tolstoy's unhappy families, but is not uniquely bad compared to many other possibilities e.g. divorce, abuse, absent father. When there are serious issues, the ultimate cause is usually something else i.e. if you denigrate your spouse in a language they don't understand, is it your choice of language or the lack of respect that's the main problem? Intercultural marriages typically have multiple sources of friction, and speaking the same language won't eliminate them.
That's not my understanding, but I am of course biased in this matter.
This was the case for me, though my grandmother didn't even speak Mandarin that well, so communication was still difficult.
This is the crux of it. Some immigrants recognize themselves as being here for ideological reasons e.g. escaping communism, corruption, lawlessness, and consciously intend to leave the trappings of their birthplace behind, and other immigrants are here because their friend in New York offered them a job at his restaurant that paid more than whatever they were making at the time, and they spared about as much thought to the generational consequences of moving to a new nation as you would if you got a good job offer in the next town over. Why would the latter sort of person think of their language and traditions as something bad to be shed?
My parents were never going to form a cohesive family unit under any circumstances, so I consider it better to have at least obtained a useful skill out of it.
Do Hasidic Jews count as having gone "fully Amish"?
Not speaking the same language can be a feature—not a bug—for relationship/marital bliss.
You have plausible deniability in pretending not to understand your girlfriend/wife’s whining, nagging, and/or shit-tests. Long, protracted arguments where tempers and voices increasingly rise are also less likely to ensue.
More options
Context Copy link
Knowing Mandarin, the pool of women you can date and marry opens up considerably. A useful advantage if you are otherwise mostly surrounded by feminist women.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link