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The point is that the costs of such military engagements (lost human lives, further destabilisation of the region) are immense and as such war should be a last resort, employed only once all diplomacy has failed and when there is strong proof of a present threat. These conditions have not been met in the case of the Iran war, where diplomacy was still a possible course of action and there is no evidence they were producing warheads. I do not believe that this war was started for prudent reasons at all; the US and Israel really just appear to have attacked because they thought Iran was showing signs of weakness and they saw it as a great opportunity.
I am not arguing that regime change was the goal, I’m arguing that even if you don't intend to do so you can still badly destabilise and destroy the region. Regarding the goals of the war, I think the instigators of the war had many different objectives; Netanyahu in particular certainly wanted regime change. Trump was very wishy-washy on this, but many of his statements suggest regime change was at least one goal among others.
"Finally, to the great proud people of Iran, I say tonight that the hour of your freedom is at hand. Stay sheltered. Don't leave your home. It's very dangerous outside. Bombs will be dropping everywhere. When we are finished, take over your government. It will be yours to take. This will be probably your only chance for generations. For many years, you have asked for America's help. But you never got it. No president was willing to do what I am willing to do tonight." Unlike how you’ve portrayed it, Trump did not say it was “not essential” and alongside the tweet that Dase posted where he outright proclaims that there will be nothing but Unconditional Surrender, it sure sounds like regime change was on the agenda.
The official narrative surrounding regime change is really quite funny, to be honest. The administration's later statements are this contradictory mix of “Regime change was never our goal, but also if it was we achieved it”, somewhat akin to “It’s not happening and if it is it’s good”. Trump wants to back out at this point, and in spite of the fact that he advocated the idea of regime change early on he has now reneged on the idea just in case he needs to cut his losses and save face, since that goal is a lot more definite and less open-ended than “depleting missile stocks” and “harming Iranian military-industrial complex” - which frankly is not that meaningful of a war goal in itself; in any war you’re virtually always guaranteed to deplete your enemy’s war resources to some degree.
Ultimately the most relevant metric when assessing victory is the cost-benefit of the engagement; does the loss of your interceptors and other war resources (which limits your ability to project power elsewhere) outweigh the benefit of hampering the combat-readiness of the Iranian regime, and is it still worth it once you factor in the economic shocks and regional instability the whole affair caused? That kind of sober analysis is what strategic victory is about, it’s not some chimp-brained goal solely oriented around fucking your enemies up.
No shit lol, I thought that was clear the second I said your moral system was disturbing. There is no way to discuss morality without having some of your own moral priors to begin with. And I never criticised you simply for making proclamations on good and evil, my criticism is that you believe all action taken against The Evil is automatically justified, regardless of the collateral damage it may cause. Just because you don’t like something and believe it is evil doesn’t mean it automatically becomes moral or high-minded for you to utilise any violence you want to achieve your aims.
US intelligence is now a pro-IRGC source, got it.
Besides, you’ve been the one trumpeting American victory uncritically, you solely believe “pro-America sources” and ignore “pro-IRGC sources” whereas I have been relatively cautious in my assessments, so for you to accuse me of that is projection to the highest degree. Your confidence that Iranian capabilities have been completely decimated should not be anywhere near as high as it is.
And there you go again proclaiming victory based on nothing but your own jingoistic fanfictions. Six ships going through the strait, with massive supply chain disruptions still ongoing, is not something to be gleeful about.
EDIT: wording
Yes, that’s how war works, do you even hear yourself? We win if Iran surrenders and one of the ways that can happen is if their government falls.
Perhaps the sentence is confusing (I wrote my comment hastily while at work). What I mean is that the official narrative is currently trying to play both sides; on the one hand, we are supposed to believe that regime change was never the goal, on the other, we are supposed to believe that regime change has already been achieved actually. The impressive degree of hedging from the current administration is rather amusing, and suggests to me the US is really trying to save face.
“It’s not happening and if it is it’s good” is a tactic wokists tend to use a lot when people start Noticing their preferred policies being shoehorned into every institution and is the same kind of hedging that's occurring here.
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