This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
People want better food, clothing and shelter. They want better healthcare. They want safety, love, belonging and a feeling of self-esteem. Lastly, they want to self-actualize.
AI helps with none of the physiological needs. It actively makes job security worse and channels our communications through a digital middle-man, worsening shared love and belonging. It renders your skills moot by skill-mogging you, decimating your self-esteem. And lastly, its nature questions the reason for our very existence, throwing self-actualization into a tizzy.
AI automates humans. AI makes 'creative' content for free. AI personalizes ads perfectly. Other than those in the capital class, who wants this. What member of proletariat 'benefits' from AI ?
That's underselling it. If you wrote super-villians that behave like Altman, Dario, Zuck and Elon, then the editor would can your script for being too on the nose.
Is it an archetype ? or is it reality.
Honestly, I expected a lot more negative pushback on that post from the Motte, which I do think of as a relatively tech-positive community. Calling Anthropic a 'doomsday cult of autists' made me laugh (if anything I want to protest on the basis that it's not fair to lump perfectly innocent autists in with 'AI' people), but the whole rationalist community is at least adjacent to that cult.
It's very much insider criticism.
I work in AI, my compensation depends on it. Most folks on here (me included) are rat adjacent in some way. On paper, I'm sympathetic to Anthropic's motivation. I have friends who work at Anthropic & OpenAI, and they're normal people.
Talking to my peers in the field is why I am jaded. They express bewilderment at the opposition to AI. These are smart people. It means they're either willfully ignorant or lying. In either scenario, it scares me that the harbingers of the next era of humanity understand so little of what makes us human.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Well, the only way out of capitalism, that doesn't involve replacing big macs with eating grass to survive, runs through building an AI capable enough to simulate the economy and coordinate economic decision-making (this was already obvious in 1970). It's really a mark of the deep intellectual unseriousness of leftists that they're freaking out about Current Thing AI instead of scheming to align it their way.
Left-leaning westerners are still capitalists. They oppose the 'turn the level up to 11' form of hyper-capitalism practiced in America (globally) and China (internally). At least the CCP periodically disappears prominent entrepreneurs, so they know its place. That's regulation. The US on the other hand, is headed towards a tyranny of an ugly coalition of mega-corps and boomer NIMBYs.
The hyperbole is unproductive. Makes your argument seem unserious. Yes, we need to replace beef = cows feasting on alfalfa. Practically all other forms of meat are valid replacements. (Note, unlike Americans, other nationals aren't as entitled about what type of meat they're eating). Lab grown meat is valid. Changing your meal's composition (eat beef 2/7 days, instead of 7/7) & eating fewer meals (Ozempic) is valid. People aren't reproducing, so fewer people is also a valid option.
Besides, AI does very little to help alleviate concerns or accelerate research in these domains.
This has been possible to do for a very long time.
People do not coordinate because they have different incentives, goals and emotional hangups. No amount of AI is going to convince a NIMBY to allow new housing or Texan to use public transportation.
More options
Context Copy link
If we can reach post-scarcity by becoming vegetarian, then I am more than willing to make that sacrifice. That seems way better than trusting the people arguing for LLM's.
We cannot reach post-scarcity by becoming vegetarian, because vegetarianism IS scarcity.
That seems like moving the goalpost. If I can live comfortably, have high quality (though meat-free) food, and not have to work then that is post scarcity. Vegetarian or not.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link