This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
And you'll get similar results, as well.
One of the claims I've seen for the benefit of data centers is, well, jobs. As someone who has friends looking to get into Data Center construction, given from what I've seen, the timeline for construction seems to be around 2 to 3 years for each new data center.
In the local area, for those 2 to 3 years, the numbers will probably be rather rosey - you'll get a glut of new people spending a fair amount of cash from things from groceries to restraunts to RV parks to hotels - business is booming! Numbers go up!
Until they leave.
Whoops. So now businesses that were operating under the assumption of a cash flow that no longer exists - and as someone who's watched more businesses fuckup due to accounting budgeting and making really stupid decisions than I care to admit to, oh boy is this the likely outcome - if they can't react to the economic shock, more than likely they'll go under.
So now you've got a data center likely set in the most moronic of location and a bunch of businesses now no longer able to make ends meat because the circumstance under which they were flourishing no longer exist.
And you've still got the fucking data center.
Do I have numbers to back this up? Studies? No. All I'm going off of is a little bit more economic knowledge than the average person and watching businesses do really stupid things during covid. (Businesses got flush with cash during Covid due to government grants to stay open. So they planned around that sudden cash flow. Guess what happened when it dried up?)
Putting all that aside, even people who are pro-data center have no issue pointing out that the entire PR look is bad. And, in my personal pet peeve, I'd seen more than a few people try to compare anti-data center people to anti-nuclear power, nevermind how moronic such an arguement is.
One of these days, I'd love to see a social study to find out what causes people's brains to flip and do the meme.
What's moronic about it? It sounds very easy to me. Nuclear could have been the next generation of energy but was constrained by regulations protecting the places where they would be built. "Data centers" could be the next generation of tech but are threatened by a movement that wants regulations to protect the places where they would be built. And in both cases it scans really simply as all mixed with more than a little bit of Luddism.
Nuclear you can point to solid returns that would benefit the common consumer directly - less reliance on hydrocarbons, energy independence, cheaper energy.
Data Centers you point to with the returns that basically boil down to 'Big Businesses need it, LLMs are magic bro, trust me, we've got to beat China!'
So color me a skeptic. On Data Centers, not Nuclear. For fuck sake people, just use the magic rock and be done with it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link