site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  2yr ago (text post)   34480 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 27, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

El Salvedor's gangs seem to be in the 'worst of the worst' category and most El Salvadorans seem to be satisfied with the crackdown.

It's really something to read about 5 articles on the crackdown and seeing 'experts' from The UN, NGO's, and activists journalists quoted ad nauseam about the loss of rights of rapist and murderers, yet not one quote from the 86% of Salvadorans who approve of Bukele's actions and, you know, actually live in the same neighborhood as these rapist and murderers.

It's journalism like this that's truly demoralizing, not the imagined psy-ops campaigns believed by anons on twitter and /pol/.

I heard fragments of Bukele speech and this argument was part of it.

Human rights organizations suddenly show up when criminals get their deserved punishment (or don't get chicken in a meal for a day in those prisons), but when innocent people get killed in the streets the media and all citations from those organizations are silent and non-existent.

Anecdotally, I've seen the same situation many times and so I agree. The narrative from the extreme left governments in Latam, is that criminals are actually victims of society because they are a byproduct of them.

I recently read "Antifragile" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb and while I found it overly self-indulgent, I think his point about skin in the game is very valuable.

A western journalist has zero skin in this game. If journalists shame Bukele into releasing the gang members, then crime will explode, thousands of people will be brutally murdered, and the journalist will shrug and say "too bad, too bad".

As far as I'm concerned only people who are directly affected by the crime or by the arrests should have a say in this matter. Amnesty, western journalists, and the other usual suspects wouldn't lose a single night's sleep if a Salvadorian is murdered although I'm sure they'll be "deeply concerned". To indulge my inner Taleb here, I'll call them what they are: parasites and grifters.

Believe it or not, Journos ride the subway. They are personally threatened by criminality on a regular basis. Does this stop them from advocating for the [honorable citizens], who prey on people there?

How many US journalists do you think have ridden FENADESAL in the last decade?

Believe it or not, Journos ride the subway.

Do they? Many of them seem to be children of enormous wealth and privilege, because no one else can afford J-school and then 2-5 years of garbage internships in the most expensive cities on earth. How many of them actually ride the subway, especially outside of the safest business hours?

I think you're just making assumptions, and this claim requires some evidence. A lot of journalists probably have a middle-class/educated upbringing, but don't come from enough money for their parents to just pay for all that. A privileged background, yes, but I suspect many of them are living with roommates in a tiny apartment, dealing with student loans, maybe working a second job, etc. Why do you think they keep writing pieces demanding student loan forgiveness, higher minimum wage, government-provided healthcare, etc? Because they're broke.

journos on the subway in NYC aren't threatened by rampant gang violence in El Salvador

Hang on, isn't it the epitome of those imaged psy-ops campaigns? Am I missing some weird distinction?

I'd say this is a typical news article, one that prioritizes human rights the concerns of NGO's and activists, so have non-progressive counter-arguments on the chomping block for brevity sake. Though I don't doubt there are active and well funded demoralization campaigns.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats