This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
So Trump has now not only signed an oil deal with Russia, but also wants to lift sanctions. This seems totally indefensible. Not only does it send a clear signal (if the Greenland debacle was not clear enough) that America no longer gives a shit about the rules-based world order or the stability of the west as a block, by removing sanctions from a country that is fighting an aggressive war and that Europe regards as a serious threat. It also lifts sanctions on an ally of Iran. A country that America is currently fighting and active war against. A country that Russia is providing with military aid. He is trying to lower the high oil prices caused by the war with Iran, but seemingly making Iran stronger in the process by aiding its ally, thus making the war more difficult.
Is there some 5head strategy move I am not seeing here? Or is the man actually that inept? Is this because he is mad that Zelensky called him weak?
It seems stupid and incredibly short sighted, and it is difficult to see how this will even help America.
Can you explain what exactly you mean by this term and in what sense it was giving a shit about it before? I find its use quite vexatious, since it forces you to either accept a highly tendentious framing of the goals and practice of US foreign policy or get bogged down arguing about terminology where the other party has a plethora of official sources to legitimise their usage. Compare perhaps to the labelling of leftist street violence as "anti-fascism".
The alliance between Russia and Iran has always been transactional and ridden with mutual distrust. It is not unsound policy for the US to try to pry them apart (and indeed, I fully expect that any agreements they make with either include secret addenda stipulating to betray the other). Manifestly, any Russian support for Iran so far has fallen far short of the theoretical possibilities.
In this case it is about how military landgrabs are supposed to be a breach of rules enforced by western countries.
Likely because most equipment is being used in Ukraine. If Trump gets his way and Russia wins, equipment will be freed up that could be handed to their allies.
This is omitting a pretty important part about who the "rules" actually apply to (evidently Western countries and allies are not subject to them with respect to targets who are not). Between Israel, Kosovo and North Cyprus, and dozens of smaller examples (Pakistan/Afghanistan, China/India...) that simply don't matter, it's clear that there were never any uncircumscribed rules; beyond that it's just a matter of putting the wordcels (or, perhaps nowadays, LLMs) to work to convince the general public that all is kosher.
Since Ukrainian tolerance for casualties is much higher than American or Israeli, the same piece of gear would go further in Iranian hands (and thereby allow the Russians to extract concessions from the Americans). It is in fact conceivable that something like this happened.
Even if the rules in practice were more like "protect the stability of the western block using all means necessary", Trump's actions still mark a drastic shift away from this. And considering how the west, America included, has flourished under the old order it seems strange to brake it up.
His supporters claim that they have moved to only protecting American interests, and that helping Europe has too long been a drain on the American economy. I think that throwing away alliances seem short sighted. Fighting China economically would surely be much easier if the US took coordinated action with the EU. But the more that the EU is pushed away, the harder such coordination becomes, as the EU has to look towards their own immediate interests.
A somewhat fair criticism of the "rules based international order" is that it was always kind of a real-countries-only club. Practically speaking, this meant democratic states and their key allies. The flip side of this is that most of the objectors were/are autocratic states complaining that they're denied the legitimacy accorded to democracies. They could have that status in an instant by reforming into actual democracies, but unsurprisingly their autocratic governments are not terribly interested in the proposition that only democracies (and their client states) get to have real sovereignty.
It is short-sighted, but one of the (many) flaws of Trumpist thought processes is that they are extremely concrete thinkers. They don't understand benefits that are not literal, material transfers. The US receives massive financial/material benefits from its international position, but that takes the form of things like access to cheap credit and deference to American preferences in allied policymaking, but these benefits are all too abstract for the populist mind. They're not tribute checks or retinues contributed to American military expeditions, so they might as well not exist. Instead, they live in a world where the US is being relentlessly exploited by its allies because it doesn't get everything it wants immediately for free.
Explain what actual democracy is. Please. Any case recently in the democracies where the vox populi was heard and not implemented in a way that perverted it. Especially in immigration. Brexit being one of the worst offenders.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link