This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
But what's the point of colonizing the universe? I agree that it's good and should be done. However, expanding our material resources and technical capabilities is a means to an end. The end should be human enjoyment, whether that's conversation, art, games or whatever we can come up with given immense intellect and resources. I'm in favor of working out how to make Matrioshka brains (playing Dyson Sphere Program IRL) or whatever's more practical/efficient than that. A defence fund for dealing with aliens, entropy and so on is also a good idea.
I suppose I can't imagine how human input would be necessary or even useful. Once you figure out a nearly optimal way to assemble your megastructures, what can you do then that's useful? I'm envisioning shooting a few trillion tiny seeds that hopefully reach the target star-system and self-assemble into a factory that produces the megastructure. It's all automatic. That then receives a beam of light containing copies of people's minds. They then reproduce. They probably never have a physical body. Why would they need one? They've tapped the star or whatever energy source they're using as much as they can. All the minerals are being processed automatically. Is there make-work for them, consciously operating iron refinery #39990120347?
Say I'm one of a trillion trillion superintelligent posthumans, how can I contribute to anything 'meaningful' (aside from making art)? Do we just hope that the tech tree, so to speak, extends forever?
Even if I choose to stay on Earth, it would be very meaningful to me to know that real live biological humans actually made the million year journey to another galaxy. And people will make that journey, unless the AI prevents them of course. Maybe the adventure is like a kind of art.
But how would that even work? They'd be overtaken on the way by something more efficient. Whatever a biological human can do, a posthuman or AI can do better. When it comes to accelerating objects to near-lightspeed, it's easier to do it to smaller, tougher objects. I imagine if we figure out FTL travel, similar principles will apply.
And what do they do when they get there, when they find that galaxy's already been taken? Every star reprocessed by the time they reach it, indistinguishable from whatever they left? I get a sad vibe from it, like the Incan army sallying out against the Spanish. It was so over from the moment the Spanish arrived. If you're a biological human in this far future, it's like living your whole life as a joke or a zoo animal. Posthumans can mess with you whenever they see fit, in ways you can't even perceive, using technologies you can't imagine. They truly have the least autonomy, being totally at the mercy of more powerful beings.
Well, if it's an aligned AI, then the nanoprobes which yes, will beat us to the stars, will simply prepare the way for us, including in some regions not-preparing (leaving untouched). I'll be excited when humans do arrive.
If it's an unaligned AI, welp.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link