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I have little desire to speak outside of this thread sadly, as most people here believe I am fundamentally lesser than them and so cannot converse with me in good faith. And as to your attitudes about women, as I said below, it is impossible to believe someone is lesser than you, have general animosity about their biology, choices and personality, and have a conversation with them in good faith, much less treat them well in an private, intimate setting. I am sure most the men you know who secretly think their wives are silly and immature are not very happy behind closed doors. No sane, healthy person wants to be in a relationship and therefore spend time and money with someone they consider beneath them.
Unfortunately, anecdotes are neither facts nor sufficient evidence to say absolute statements such as "Women do not know what they want.", which is unfortunate to see in a space that espouses value in objectivity and facts.
Edit: do you have any evidence that men are funnier than women?
Edit...Edit?: Opposing his claims assumes he respects me enough to listen to my argument in good faith. He already believes I am "extremely passive when it comes to approaching and will not take initiative to… initiate". He doesn't care much for my thought process and would likely be glad to have me continue to abstain. However, I think if you want to continue to talk to me you'll have to respond with a reply instead of an edit.
This isn't true at all! You can take seriously the arguments of someone who's dumber, or morally lesser, than you. Ancient kings sometimes heeded the advice of philosophers or commoners, despite believing in something like a great chain of being. Not that it matters, most mottizens are liberals or christians or some sort and hold something like 'everyone is equal morally/eyes of god' and also 'honest and clear discourse is important'
It's not an absolute statement though, it describes a tendency. If I say "man, islam sure is sexist" on a visit to the middle east, and you point out the large number of liberal muslims in the US who aren't sexist ... this misses the point? But a lot of women make statements that are transparently incompatible with their 'revealed preferences', especially about sex and dating. Obviously more generally both men and women do it, but there are specific patterns to the way women do it - like, describing the behaviors they like in men, or claiming that PUA stuff universally doesn't work (it does! example, second paragraph), which zinker is referring to.
Like, what's even happening here? What do the words "sane" and "healthy" even mean? If I believe the following: women should be subservient to men, God's law is that a husband and wife should love each other, and then enjoy spending time with my wife in the usual way you do, and "explicitly justify this" via the second premise ... I want to be in a relationship and spend time and money, and yet I consider my wife in some sense "beneath me". A sexist might spend plenty of money on their wife as part of a social game to show wealth! That statement's just not true.
Yet we all reply, reply, reply, because this place explicitly exists to have autistic long discussions about politics with people we disagree with!
I disagree. You cannot take seriously someone who you think is dumber than you, because if their argument is sound, it is not because you think their reasoning is sound or their character, but that they got lucky enough to say a smart thing.
But women are not a monolithic religion like Islam. They have their own individual preferences that vary between eachother. For example, I think PUA stuff does universally not work, and...where am I supposed to go with "describing behaviors they like in men"? How are you able to tell I am lying about what kind of man I like by the basis I am a woman? Do you have objective evidence to show women are typically lying about something as fundamentally as what they like?
"Sane" and "healthy", in my opinion, fall under "not being with someone who thinks you should be subservient to them or they should be subservient to you". A sexist is not a sane, healthy person. Does your wife know that you think, explicitly, she should be subservient to you?
That's not what the phrase 'reasoning is sound' means? If their argument is sound, their 'reasoning is sound'. Very dumb people often understand things correctly, e.g. they go about day-to-day life normally, and that requires thousands of bits of 'sound reasoning' - what made that sound, did i buy food yesterday, etc. "Get lucky" and "take seriously" are entirely compatible! If someone with 100iq, purely randomly, discovered the true theory of quantum gravity, the 150iq physicists would love to take his argument seriously. And I've learned a lot from some objectively stupid people who still, by coincidence or life experience, had interesting information.
More specifically, I've had teachers in subjects who were, clearly, much dumber than me, but they had lots of domain knowledge that I didn't have, which it was useful for me to learn, so I learned it! It's difficult to say I wasn't taking said teacher seriously as I learned all that stuff from them, in the exact same way I would from a smarter teacher. Yet that's what your argument would suggest.
But nothing is monolithic - the reason for the islam example was precisely because there are a lot of liberal muslims who don't share most of the ideas of conservative muslims. And, similarly, that phrase, as it describes women, is referring to a strong tendency among most women, not all women.
Then what explains the many women who say it works on them? An example of which I linked, but there are many more. In general, if one observes peoples' stated desires, they are so clearly influenced by social norms, mimesis, and all sorts of complicated contingencies that they are clearly very often wrong. Not as explicit lies, but more as combinations of alienation, general confusion, not wanting to seem weird, copying the desires of others, confusing signs for signified, etc. So I can just do this - from your perspective, both modern conservative women and generally past 'reactionary' women were wrong about their desires, right? So it's clearly possible.
So have 98% of all male humans who have ever lived not been "sane"? Because 'women have lower status than men and are in some what subservient" is the norm, obviously in many different forms, historically.
Yet sexists can lead ... perfectly normal lives? Again, by this claim, 99% of all male humans who have ever lived are not sane or healthy. Yet they lived very similar lives to male humans today, and we can read their cultural artifacts, books, diaries, and they clearly are, by every conventional meaning of the word, sane and healthy.
I haven't ever claimed, anywhere, that women should be subservient to men, or husbands should be to their wives. You've conflated my arguments with the general sphere of 'right-wing arguments' you're seeing here.
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I think you are making two mistakes here. The first is to assume that positions that deviate from the bog-standard feminist discourse must be evidence of misogyny. I don't think that is necessarily the case. The posters here certainly don't hate you personally - they don't know you.
Second: I think you are typically-minding men. It is extremely important for most straight women to be with someone they "respect" and can look up to. It would be revolting to be partnered to someone they consider beneath them. The same is not true for men. "Respect", in the sense women use the word, i.e. a stand-up guy that can take care of himself, is assertive and ambitious, that people listen to etc., does not place very high on the list of criteria men have for suitable partners. They do need to respect their partners in terms of earnesty, fidelity, sincerity (and for some: chastity) but it is fundamentally a different dynamic.
I don't see how calling all women lying, indecisive, immature, unfunny children isn't misogyny, and more than calling all men sexually frustrated chimps isn't misandrist. The posters here may not hate me, yes, but as I said earlier, I believe when engaging with people who find you biologically inferior to them, the most charitable interpretation of your arguments will be with pity or amusement. If my argument is sound, it is not because my reasoning or logics are sound, but because putting a monkey in a room with a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will cause him to inevitable smash out the works of Shakespeare or, a broken clock is right twice a day, because I am a woman, and things like rationally arguing doesn't come naturally according to posters here, so I either learned it from a man or I have too much testosterone in my system. Not hate, yes, but certainly not a positive sentiment.
Do you have evidence that all men don't want to be with someone they respect earnestly? Because I disagree; I think all people want to be with someone that makes them happy, and being with someone you think will be unfaithful for no reason than their biology sound a bit paranoid and miserable to me.
You continue to misunderstand me and I think it might be because you are conflating the replies of many different people in this thread here. Like women, us non-feminist men and women are not a monolith.
I am also not sure where you are getting that most people here think that women are incapable of reasoning. I would not be surprised if you found that kind of talk around here somewhere - people argue a lot of shit on the motte - but it certainly isn't a very widespread sentiment. We have quite a few very respected female posters here.
What I do think is that our society gives upper middle-class women a free pass for some extremely shitty behaviour that hence becomes normalised. Frankly, we are raising a lot of women to become raging narcissists with all the idiotic #grrrlllllpwrrrrr propaganda that is being blasted on all channels. Consequently, women will be displaying more of these undesirable traits in our Western societies. I also believe there are more male than female assholes in Iran, if that makes you happier.
I also believe that by and large, men and women are different, on average and with large overlaps, and that this difference doesn't stop at the neck. For example, there tends to be a lot more difference between stated and revealed preferences among women, at least when it comes to romantic and sexual preferences.
I am well aware that this makes me a miSogYniSt according to contemporary feminism. It doesn't mean I don't believe in equal opportunities for all. I certainly don't believe in the equalisation of outcomes for unequal effort, though.
You are again substituting what you think respect is and should mean for what I think respect is and should mean - which I believe to be different for men and women. Also, your requests for evidence are an isolated demand for rigour. I could go and look for studies on how much men and women value assertiveness and ambition in their partners, for example. But that takes time and I am not sure it would convince you one bit. You'd have to show me the effort is worth it - I don't see you providing any data backing up your experiences either.
Never said that. Read carefully.
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No one will know (or care if) you are a woman if you don't start every comment with "As a woman". But you do you.
I don't know what to say besides the fact that despite it intuitively not being possible, it happens. Especially on the motte. That's kind of the whole selling point of the place, that you can discuss civilly with people you strongly disagree with. Is it not evident to you that multiple 400+ word responses carefully understanding your arguments and then voicing agreement or disagreement at a level much higher than the rest of the internet? Did anyone tell you to "gtfo bitch"? Because that is just about how most of the internet including females you disagree with would have responded. If engaging with you sincerely and respectfully despite "hating your guts" isn't the purest definition of respect, then I don't what is.
Just bring strict arguments, I am sure you know what is good and bad after years of lurking. Leave your identity and emotions and ego at the door and you will be fine. This is "high decoupler" land and all you need are arguments.
Seriously just take my advice, and don't take the words you see here personally. Leave the fact you are a woman and just dive straight into the actual facts. I have used the internet long enough to know that making a discussion about you sanctimoniously will always end badly no matter how much the audience loves you.
Yes, the gender ratio of comedians not only in standup but all forms. And the fact that I make women laugh about 50x more than they make me laugh. Men also make me laugh a lot more than women. This is so obvious to me that I don't feel the need for evidence.
First result from google. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/336735385_Sex_differences_in_humor_production_ability_A_meta-analysis
Atleast try before immediately assuming the worst? Once again that's the whole point of the motte.
Which is a fact. Women do approach men a lot less than men approach women.
I don't know what it has to do with YOU in particular. He is speaking in generalities.
I'm here all day.
Is it not evident to me that multiple 400+ word responses carefully misunderstanding my arguments and then voicing mostly disagreement is a sign of respect and more evident that it is the expected form of discourse here if you don't want to get a ban. Talking politely to me while thinking I am not deserving of higher education, management positions and a place in the workforce because my body makes me emotional and immature is hardly what I consider to be the makeup of a person who respects me and my choices. You say, "Leave the fact you are a woman and just dive straight into the actual facts.", but did the many men here who included the fact they are men and have used mostly anecdotal evidence and subjective, absolute statements doing the same? I would say no. I would say not even you, whose only evidence I see for why men are funny is your opinion of standup comedians and your opinion on the women around you.
I decline to try, because, as I said, it is impossible to have a conversation in good faith with someone you believe is biologically inferior to you. His most charitable interpretation of me would be amusement, or benign pity, because even if my argument was sound, it would not be because my character was sound but because a monkey hitting keys on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time with almost surely type any given text, including the complete works of Shakespeare, or, a broken clock is right twice a day.
The benefit of the rules here is that I can have a conversation with people who disrespect me, not that I can have a respectful one. I am quite sure if it was not for the strict efforts of the moderation team, most men here would indeed tell me "gtfo". Instead, they say, as seen above, "you might not be the best source of actionable and effective advice here.", which I find more conductive for a conversation, yes, but not at all indicative of respect for me.
Huh? Every reply could just be "I don't think you are engaging in good faith." if so. Yet people are trying to argue your points in detail. That said arguments misinterpret your points is ... just how complicated politics discussions often work.
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I guess that depends on what you consider a "respectful" conversation.
We have a lot of people here with diametrically opposed viewpoints and identities, and by "diametrically opposed" I mean there are posters who literally believe certain other posters should be dead and/or stripped of their rights. This is not hyperbole (though fortunately, it's also a small slice of the general commentariat).
But generally speaking, this place isn't for "winning" an argument with another poster (though it's an easy trap to fall into). You may be talking to someone who doesn't actually believe you are sapient (we have those too) but that person isn't the only one reading your words.
Obviously, you aren't obliged to talk to anyone you don't want to talk to. But consider that you are not trying to persuade the hopeless, seething misogynist, even if that's the person you're arguing with.
I absolutely agree with your final sentence. Anecdotally, I never said a single word in /r/TheRedPill, and yet through sheer lurking, I found myself so thoroughly redpilled I was asking men on that forum what I should do as a woman to make men happy since I was so naturally prone to pissing them off. Those ghostly eyes watching us are always watching, after all. I like to think here we share counterarguments. If they are good or bad ones depends on those everwatchful lurkers.
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I'm more or less confident most of the users who responded to you would have responded the same regardless of the threat of the ban hammer or not. I've been seeing those names for years.
You might think you merely being a woman is enough to send everyone here into a rage or something but you do realize there are like 5 other women also in the thread?
So what?
I think the majority of the human population doesn't "deserve" higher education. I am not "disrespecting" anyone, I am proposing a way to optimize a system.
Much in the same way the system of dating would be optimized towards a male advantage if women majority non-economically productive majors were not subsidized. You wouldn't even have to think about the women at all, a libertarian can reach that exact same conclusion, and the outcome would be the same.
I also think they (most people) make bad choices. It would be disrespectful to lie about that!
I don't know why you are autistically latching onto this one point. Yes, I think men are in general funnier than women, sue me? Once again, what's the big deal if I hold that opinion?
I gave you literally all the evidence in the world for it, and it is all the evidence because there are more pressing matters to study than which gender cracks better jokes.
You can try or not, that's your call.
But I would say taking up the challenge is quite literally what the motte is for.
No one is entitled to respect. Firstly because you are a new account and no one knows you as a person. Secondly, "respect" is not a necessary precondition to have a conversation in a pseudonymous forum.
This aligns with men's experiences, once again, whats the big deal?
Do you not think that other women think that women as a group are in general better than putting on makeup or some extremely obvious majority-female activity? Are women "disrespecting" men by believing that or just believing in the truth?
You are making the whole thing about yourself and taking an issue with people disagreeing and saying that your general group might not be good at things. Those are not arguments, those are complaints.
If you want to defend the honour of your gender, do it, but you are making it all about yourself and making "omg people are mean to girls here can you believe it" statements. There's no way to engage with solipcism meaningfully.
I do think there are other women that think that all women are better at makeup, parenting, nursing, etc, due to biological preferences and yes, I think it is disrespectful to men to imply that they are incapable of certain things because of their bodies. I think all men and women are capable of exactly the same things emotionally and spiritually, sans physical capabilities due to hormonal differences which can be remedied with science.
I am making it all about myself because I am a woman, and every generalized comment about women is therefore directed at me. When you say men are funnier than women, you are also saying you are funnier than me, for no other reason than because of your body. The "big deal" of you holding that opinion is that I find it's a rather illogical and mean one, and tells me you have rather poor judgement, and also if I were to meet you in real life, I should avoid trying to be funny with you and people who agree with you because you will be hostile to all of my jokes in the company of other men. You have yet to provide me any evidence men are funnier than women other than your belief. If I think men and women can be equally funny because humor is not a physical trait, does that make it trounce yours because I believe it more than you? I'd say no.
I don't know exactly how to engage with absolute statements, which are neither statistically or personally relevant. People here make big claims about women - and therefore me - with little evidence other than personal anecdotes. Your characterization of people just saying "my" group "might" not be good at things is rather charitable for statements that literally call me indecisive, immature, emotional and illogical.
It really depends on what you are implying innit. It wouldn't be a stretch to assert men are physically incapable of childbirth.
I don't know where you got the "bodies" thing though, no discussion here as mentioned as such. The discussion here is focussing on brains and the cultural conditioning on those brains.
In matters of truth and false, which is more important some nebulous conception of "respect" or the truth? As others have already explained to you that "X is better than Y" can be charitably interpreted as " past a certain threshold there exists more X than Y".
No it isn't and I would go as far as to say it is narcissistic to think it is.
"X is better than Y" can be charitably interpreted as " past a certain threshold there exists more X than Y".
A trait doesn't have to be physical for it to be measurable. For example personality, intelligence, etc.
Most of the statements made here have strong statistical backing. You are unware of them because these conversations are built on a body of ideas that have been discussed here for years. And honestly, since you comprehend "X is better than Y, in general" as "all X is better than all Y", I don't think you actually understand statistics well enough to be swayed by them either way.
No one called you any of those things. They said women have a tendency to be more of those things and they provided their reasoning/evidence.
The thing is you are a low decoupler getting outraged at high decouplers talking. Ironically that is a very womanly thing to do.
You are proposing that discussions need not be if they "disrespect" certain groups, which is fine and dandy if creating a peaceful environment is your terminal goal, but that does come at the cost of the truth. While the high decouplers are scratching their heads thinking when did respect even come into any of this.
Brains are part of a body, no?
If you say "men are funnier than woman", and I am a woman and you are a man, it would not follow then you are saying "you" which can be supplemented with "a man" are funnier than "me" which can be supplemented with "a woman". Otherwise, I imagine one would say "most men" are funnier than "most women", no?
I don't think you can measure personality and intelligence, so I would have to disagree with you.
Do you have evidence of this strong statistical backing? Can you show me where my lack of understanding of statistics, which I took in highschool and college, causes me to fail to recognize that, from what I am understanding, when someone say "all" men they mean "not all" men?
I am not too sure how saying "women have a tendency to be immature" is not that same as saying "you have a tendency to be immature", since I am a woman. I would have to find though that your comment that my "outrage" is a "womanly thing" to be awfully uncharitable and insulting if you do not have evidence to support that.
Because every different forum has it's own discussion norms. The norms here are that when people say "X is more Y than Z" it is assumed that "past a certain threshold there exists more X in Y than Z".
Are these norms unequivocally good or universal? No. But that's just how things developed over time. The understanding of distributions of different means and tail effects are fairly well internalized around here.
Discussions here are not dumbed down for the lowest common denominator. In other places the interpretation you highlighted might be the norm/default, it's not here. So I think it's best you just assume that can move on rather than questioning endlessly as to why that is the case.
A commonly shared context smoothes communication. And despite that people still write 1000 word comments.
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/into-the-longhouse/
The article highlights many ways in which male-dominated and female-dominated discourse differs. Which does not imply XY dominated and XX dominated. It implies the animus behind the discourse. And it's natural that XY human beings are more likely to operate in the masculine animus more than the feminine one.
Feminine discourse norms prioritize inclusion above all else. This is good for certain place, but is bad for certain places too. If all discourse becomes feminine you pay a price for it much in the same way if all discourse become masculine. There is an argument to be made that currently discourse in the West and wherever it exports is culture tends to be more feminine than masculine.
The evidence is that women are quicker to take offense to things that have implications that there is some sort of heirarchy.
You can't measure it but you can measure proxies for it. As long as the proxy is good enough, the purpose is served. You don't even need to measure personality for example, as long as you have an idea of how different one person is from another along a certain dimension, you can create a measurement system, such as the Big 5 factor model.
Many users explained to you many times the reasoning behind this and why people talk as much. I don't think it bears repeating over and over again.
Yes, just about all online dating data supports the claims people are making here.
Also, I am continuously on the defensive here. I can just flip it around and start asking you for evidence for your claims. I suggest you understand and engage with my points instead of repeatedly taking the discussion back to where it started (you taking offense).
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No. When I say men are better than women at X, this can mean two things:
men are better than women at X on average
the share of men who are at least this good at X is higher than the share of women who are at least this good at X
If 1 is true, then 2 is necessarily true as well, but not the other way around. For example, "men are stronger than women" is usually understood to mean 1: if you put a random man and a random woman into an octagon, you should bet on the man winning. This doesn't mean when I tell Raquel Pennington men are stronger than women I am also saying I am stronger than her.
But 2 can also be explained by higher variance: women are "more average" than men at X, so there are more men very good at X and more men very bad at X than women at the same time. If you put a random man and a random woman and have them compete against each other, there's no way to tell who to bet on. But if you want a random man and a random woman to succeed at a task that is harder than average, you should bet on the man.
High enough variance can even counteract being worse at X on average if the threshold is sufficiently high, which might sound counterintuitive: as a completely invented example, men can have worse scores in darts than women countrywide, but the top N darts players can be mostly men at the same time.
What I ultimately wanted to say is that "men are better than women at X" never means "I, a man, am better than you, a woman, at X". At its worst, it can mean, "I, a man, am probably better than you, a woman, at X".
Then why use absolute statements about women if you don't mean to use absolute statements. Saying "men are funnier than women" is saying, in my opinion, "I am funnier than you." Saying "some men are funnier than women" or "most men are funnier than women" seems to be, in my opinion, more aligned with what I see you are trying to communicate.
Because it's a common shorthand when talking about distributions.
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No one thinks the statement "men are taller than women" implies that literally every man is taller than literally every woman: everyone knows that male dwarfs and female Amazons exist and that there is enormous variability in height between ethnic groups.
Then why not use "most men are taller than women" instead of "men are taller than women"?
The statements "most men are taller than most women" and "men are taller than women" mean exactly the same thing. The former statement includes two unnecessary words for no good reason.
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