This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Can you point out any previous serious pushback against laws that explicitly favor women/protections for women?
We have the abortion situation, but voters tend to approve broader abortion rights, when asked. Its like, there is just no actual organized 'resistance' to a law that is couched as pro-female!
I think if you simply couched it as "protecting women from becoming unhoused by abusive partners exploiting the courts" you could turn it into a 60-40 in favor issue, at least.
Would YOU vote against that?
No. But I can't recall any recent laws that made a black-and-white distinction like what you are hypothesizing. If you can show me a law (in the US) that literally says, for example, "Abuse is defined as a male hitting a female," or something like that, I will reassess my opinion.
Would I vote against a law that explicitly defines abuse in such a way that men hitting women is abuse and women hitting men is not? Yes, I would.
What I've heard (and how, realistically, this would be implemented, getting around the democratic process) is that police training on domestic violence rounds to this.
Not having received the training or seen the documents, I can't actually speak to it, and I am not sure I believe this. And I don't really have much of a dog in this specific fight. But generally it seems to me that "the law" often isn't where to go looking for things that special interest groups would like to happen but are unpopular.
Yes, how many times do we have to distinguish between de jure and de facto applications of the law? You're just repeating the same point for the fourth time. What I asked for was very specific, not yet another example of "Well, we know it's usually men arrested for abuse."
Also, from my understanding, more and more police departments are in fact treating allegations of abuse from either sex seriously, to the point that now it's sometimes the husband or boyfriend saying "Wait a minute!" when the cops arrive, hear both sides, and put cuffs on the woman because she put hands on him first. (Watch a lot of police body cam videos and you see this often - the cops are no longer ignoring it when a woman slaps or scratches or throws things.)
The phenomena I am talking about isn't just culture, it's formalized culture – or, in another word, regulation. Usually if you want to know why something is the way it is in the United States, the law (that is, the law that is passed by the legislature) is only the first place to look; the regulations that bind the public are another place to look, but the regulations that bind the regulators are another place to look. Often it's harder to look there, because they aren't public by default.
Very interesting! I never watched a lot of police body cam videos, so I'm not really sure what the baseline rate is or was. But I wouldn't be surprised if their training has been changing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
What would you tell the female voters who accuse you of misogyny for favoring the ability of abusive men to kick women out of the house?
Anyway, I admit to laying a bit of a trap because its been red states passing laws aimed at protecting female rights, Which do try to draw a very direct black and white gender distinction.
Because of trans issues, you see.
Kansas passed something called, LITERALLY, "The Women's Bill of Rights" OVER THE GOVERNOR'S VETO.
https://womensliberationfront.org/news/victory-womens-bill-of-rights-passes-in-kansas-with-bipartisan-support
Mississipi's was called the“Securing Areas for Females Effectively and Responsibly Act”
https://magnoliatribune.com/2024/05/13/legislation-signed-into-law-defining-sexes-protecting-single-sex-spaces-for-women/
Alabama called theirs The “What Is a Woman?” Act.
https://natlawreview.com/article/what-woman-alabama-governor-signs-bill-declaring-there-are-only-two-sexes
Its kind of funny that news stories tend to specify these laws as protecting 'women' even though, admittedly, they are textually reciprocal. For some reason the legislators title them explicitly around the female interests that are invoked.
So yeah. Its pretty obvious to me that any time you can couch a policy change as "protecting the girls" you can get a huge amount of normie support for it.
I'm not a politician, so I am not concerned about that.
For someone who's the #3 He-man Woman-Hater on the Motte, I really don't understand your cringing attitude towards the prospect of female disapproval. I get that it's harder when you're out there in the dating market, and I won't lie, I am glad not to be there, but still.
Yes, I figured that, but as I expected, they aren't actually what I asked for. And even by your own admission, they are actually "textually reciprocal" (i.e., de jure they apply both ways, even if it is pretty obvious that no one is worried about trans men being excluded from men's spaces). So... you gave me oranges and said "Look at them unfair apples! Gotcha!" Uh, right.
I'm not even convinced "normies" buy the "protecting girls" framework here. To the degree leftists are in favor of trans rights bills, they see trans women as an oppressed underclass, but I am deeply skeptical as to how many really and truly perceive them as "girls," in the way that provokes the male protective instinct you are so despairing of.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link