site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 2, 2026

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Legitimacy & Israel

What is it that makes a state legitimate? It's amazing to me how many people simply take any existing state as legitimate, without asking whether it ought to be seen as legitimate or not. States commit horrific acts of violence and coercion daily, so this is an important question. How can we know whether such a state is actually justified in committing such blatantly awful acts?

There are, I think, at first appearance two popular theories of this: might makes right, and democratic moralism. The former theory is amoral, and the latter is moralistic. In practice, however, I think these are in fact merely two faces of the same coin.

On the one hand, the might-makes-right people say that the state is self-justifying. It exists, it has might, therefore obey it, end of discussion. This is unsatisfying in that it essentially dodges the topic of discussion. As such it is not really a valid answer to the question of legitimacy; rather it implicitly denies that there is any question to be had at all. Might makes right might be a good starting point for a science of state, which investigates how, in human history, states have emerged and become mighty, but it is inappropriate for the normative question that is the question of legitimacy (what type of state should there be?).

Now on the other hand the democratists say that the state is justified when it is popular. But why should that be? If you assume, empirically, that people have different levels of moral aptitude, then popularity immediately appears to be a formula to craft a wicked state. The only deeper justification is that popularity probably correlates with mightiness. But this is just a thin veneer over the first position.

So said Thrasymachus:

Listen, then, he said; I proclaim that justice is nothing else than the interest of the stronger. […]

Well, he said, have you never heard that forms of government differ; there are tyrannies, and there are democracies, and there are aristocracies? […] And the different forms of government make laws democratical, aristocratical, tyrannical, with a view to their several interests; and these laws, which are made by them for their own interests, are the justice which they deliver to their subjects, and him who transgresses them they punish as a breaker of the law, and unjust. And that is what I mean when I say that in all states there is the same principle of justice, which is the interest of the government; and as the government must be supposed to have power, the only reasonable conclusion is, that everywhere there is one principle of justice, which is the interest of the stronger.

— Plato, Republic 338c–339a (trans. Jowett)

In the Gorgias, Socrates makes the link to democracy explicit, and Callicles agrees:

SOCRATES: Then the many are by nature superior to the one, against whom, as you were saying, they make the laws?

CALLICLES: Certainly.

SOCRATES: Then the laws of the many are the laws of the superior?

CALLICLES: Very true.

— Plato, Gorgias 488d (trans. Jowett)

But Callicles then points out the absurdity of democracy:

CALLICLES: This man will never cease talking nonsense. At your age, Socrates, are you not ashamed to be catching at words and chuckling over some verbal slip? do you not see—have I not told you already, that by superior I mean better: do you imagine me to say, that if a rabble of slaves and nondescripts, who are of no use except perhaps for their physical strength, get together, their ipsissima verba are laws?

— Plato, Gorgias 489b–c (trans. Jowett)

I agree, rather, with Socrates (and Plato?) that the aristocratic rule by virtue is more just than the democracy. And likewise the most legitimate state is the state of Reason (or what was called philosophy). I believe in modern times, Francis Galton and Friedrich Nietzsche have shown us the way to establish a legitimate state.

I teach ye the Overmen! Man is something that should be overcome. What have ye done to overcome him?

All beings until now created something above themselves: but ye want to be the ebb of the great tide and prefer rather to go back to animals than to overcome man?

What is an ape to a man? A joke or a painful disgrace! And likewise should men for the Overmen be: a joke or a painful disgrace.

— Friedrich Nietzsche, Also sprach Zarathustra, Prologue §3

Galton:

If a twentieth part of the cost and pains were spent in measures for the improvement of the human race that is spent on the improvement of the breed of horses and cattle, what a galaxy of genius might we not create!

— Francis Galton, "Hereditary Talent and Character," Macmillan's Magazine 12 (1865)

Thirdly it must be introduced into the national conscience, like a new religion. It has, indeed, strong claims to become an orthodox religious tenet of the future, for Eugenics co-operates with the workings of Nature by securing that humanity shall be represented by the fittest races. What Nature does blindly, slowly, and ruthlessly, man may do providently, quickly, and kindly.

— Francis Galton, "Eugenics: Its Definition, Scope and Aims" (1904), in Essays in Eugenics (1909)

I take Eugenics very seriously, feeling that its principles ought to become one of the dominant motives in a civilised nation, much as if they were one of its religious tenets.

— Francis Galton, Memories of My Life (1908)

Now this brings me to Israel. Israel is a recent example of state foundation, by which I mean the art of creating a new state. It was founded in 1948 by a population made up largely of recent immigrants; for well over a thousand years Jews had been but a small minority in the region; for nearly two thousand there was no Jewish state.

Now, what kind of state is Israel? Obviously, it is Jewish. But it is also democratic. And it seems to premise its existence on the dwelling of the Jewish immigrants in the region. What inferences can we make here regarding probable hypotheses in the science of state? For one, we can guess that Israel and states like it depend on the influx of people into its vicinity for its sustenance. In other words Israel is predicated on the mass immigration of aliyah; the Jewish population grew from about 25,000 in the 1880s to about 630,000 by 1948, mostly through immigration. It is merely, then, the armed and coercive organisation of that population.

What sort of just foundation is that? Consider this: when one man declares himself sovereign, he is a laughing stock, like an ape. When a few men do it, they are criminals; yet when many men do it, I am supposed to profess that they are just?

I would prefer to keep my reason and see all such founders, not only Israel's, as laughing-stocks and criminals. Thus, I see Israel as the farce of state foundation. For before Israel we knew the way to the just state; yet it was the Torah and its aliyah which led to the foundation of Israel, a state not unlike all previous states, and all of its rivals in the region. There is nothing new or elevated about Israel. What is the higher purpose?

And if Israel is farce, who then is the tragedy? One does not have to look far; it is Israel's greatest ally, or should I say its uncle, old Samuel. For the United States was founded on philosophy, it was founded on higher ideals. But its ideals were flawed, because its philosophers were flawed, and so were its people. It started as an oligarchy, that saw itself as an aristocracy, and it never knew true justice. As Plato would predict, it degenerated to a democracy, and lost most of what apprehension of virtue it had, and now many say it is on the road to tyranny.

Imagine what could be done with North America if it were not already settled! That is the tragedy. And the farce is all the effort put in to crowding out the Muslims in Palestine, for nothing higher at all. The situation is so dire that people dream of settling Mars, a desert with no water and no breathable air, because at least it is not yet scourged by a state. Galton had the same dream:

On the forty-second page of the notebook, Galton lays out the skeleton of a story involving Mars, sun signals flashed from Earth, and eugenics among intelligent Martians, who are said to be descended from Ants by natural and artificial selection.

— Gavan Tredoux, galton.org

Some will say all of this is silly because it is impossible. But we know true aliyah is not impossible; Galton showed us that much. If Israel were impossible, it would not be because of the Jews. It would be because of the gentiles. So too, if true Israel is impossible, it is because the true gentiles block the true aliyah of the true Jews. (Sozusagen). Ask yourself, are you a Jew or a Gentile? Is it just for the gentiles to stop the Jews? And how should Jews feel, if they are stopped?

To be plain, since the above is metaphor (which I think has value in itself): I am not talking about actual Jews or gentiles. Zionism showed that a scattered people can migrate and found a state within a few decades; Galton showed what kind of state would be worth founding. By «true Israel» I mean a state founded on reason and on Galton's eugenics rather than on scripture. By «true aliyah» I mean the migration of the people who want such a state to a place where they can found it. By «true Jews» I mean those founders, and by «true gentiles» the existing states and peoples who would stop them. So the question I am asking is: would it be just for existing states to block the founding of a better one, and would its founders be wronged if they were blocked?

It seems to me that you are conflating a few aspects of statecraft and loading them all onto the term of "legitimacy." At first, you discuss theories of where the authority of a state comes from. As in, what makes a state a state, as opposed to a voluntary federation or some other form of organization. You correctly identify the state as the locus of organized power in a region, with both the state's capacity for coordinated action ("might") and the consent of the governed as relevant factors of a state's ability to efficiently operate. States have laws, and part of what separates a good state from a failed state is its ability to enforce said laws and promote whatever its model of an ideal society is.

However, you also discuss matters of moral appropriateness, and, to me, this seems entirely divorced from the concept of what a state is. In my view, it does not matter the ideals upon which a state is founded - a bunch of channers could come together and make Kekistan and it would have just as much legitimacy as Indonesia. It would be younger, with less of a felt legitimacy due to its age, but it would be, definitionally, a state.

What sort of just foundation is that? Consider this: when one man declares himself sovereign, he is a laughing stock, like an ape. When a few men do it, they are criminals; yet when many men do it, I am supposed to profess that they are just?

No, you do not need to profess that they "are" just. Perhaps there are moral questions about the means by which a state was founded or about the morals of its current actions. However, there is nothing morally relevant about the mere existence of a state qua state. As a practical matter, though, it is in your interest to recognize them as a state, as a large group of people declaring themselves sovereign and self-governing is a nearly tautological definition of what a state actually is. The difference between a state that is a laughingstock and a state that is broadly recognized has to do with history, cultural associations, and, as you rightly identify, both its might and the consent of the governed. The moral status of a state, its actions, and the philosophical lodestone of the state are secondary considerations. A state can be a colonial state, a "rogue" state, a morally repugnant state, but a state nonetheless. Native Americans do not dispute the fact that America is a state even if it was founded by purging their communities.

In other words, it seems appropriate to me to discuss whether or not a state's actions are just, but the notion of whether a state exists or not has little moral relevance. It is purely a matter of practicality. I'm reminded of this clip - Israel does exist.

So the question I am asking is: would it be just for existing states to block the founding of a better one, and would its founders be wronged if they were blocked?

It is neither just nor unjust to block the founding of a state. That question requires more specifics: why is the new state being created? By what means is the new state claiming territory and establishing itself? Are there geopolitical impacts?

If Australia wants to split into East Australia and West Australia, on its face there is no reason for that to be morally relevant. However, if West Australia proclaims that once founded, the military will kill everyone under 5'0" to make a eugenic superstate, that becomes morally relevant, and the decision to intervene in the state's existence is downstream of that effect. Silly example, but I think you get me.

You correctly identify the state as the locus of organized power in a region, with both the state's capacity for coordinated action ("might") and the consent of the governed as relevant factors of a state's ability to efficiently operate.

This may be a nit, but, if that's consent, then let Ghislaine Maxwell go. I much prefer to say popularity, or maybe acquiescence.

States have laws, and part of what separates a good state from a failed state

Again a nit, but, functional or working, not good.

Maybe these are not nits. When all we have are words, isn't it important to use the right ones? As I said elsewhere, it seems like modern « philosophy » is an absolute minefield when it comes to little blemishes like these. It adds up to a totally false picture.

However, you also discuss matters of moral appropriateness, and, to me, this seems entirely divorced from the concept of what a state is.

I implied it is quite divorced, yes.

In my view, it does not matter the ideals upon which a state is founded - a bunch of channers could come together and make Kekistan and it would have just as much legitimacy as Indonesia.

I use legitimacy as a moral term. I think you mean existence. States can exist, but be illegitimate (or rather they can be more or less legitimate on a continuum.)

No, you do not need to profess that they "are" just. ... A state can be a colonial state, a "rogue" state, a morally repugnant state, but a state nonetheless. Native Americans do not dispute the fact that America is a state even if it was founded by purging their communities. ... I'm reminded of this clip - Israel does exist.

I think you have misread me to a great degree. Nowhere did I say that illegitimate states do not exist. Specifically, did you miss this line:

Might makes right might be a good starting point for a science of state, which investigates how, in human history, states have emerged and become mighty, but it is inappropriate for the normative question that is the question of legitimacy (what type of state should there be?).

Here I clearly draw the distinction that you are grasping at.