This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Proportionally, do Trans women have greater visibility in the Open Source ecosystem as compared to Cis Women?
This is anecdotal, but I've often noticed that, I read a technical blog post by someone, end up following them, find that they are women (pronouns/name) and later find that they are trans.
At this point almost all women whose technical blogs I follow are Trans. So, this makes me wonder, are Cis women Software Engineers just not interested in Open Source or writing blogs? If there is some sort of discrimination involved then it should also effect Trans women since they are just another username on the screen, just like everyone else. In fact they may even face more discrimination than Cis women.
This very much looks like something progressives should be up in the arms about since Identarian politics and equality of outcome is very much their thing. But you only have strategic silence.
I think this is potentially evidence against the blank slatism that says systemic discrimination is the only possible reason for the lack of female representation in certain occupations. One issue you could poke in this argument is that Trans women were socialized as male, but I think all the young boys who are being socialized as girls today will soon prove them wrong.
I don't think my CS domain interests are too niche. They mostly lean towards Systems, Security, Programming languages (Go, Rust, C++, ...). I source technical content on these topics from HN, lobste.rs and some subreddits which themselves are not overly niche platforms in the Software industry. So I think there is something to think about here.
OR I am just falling prey to some sort of Sampling bias and the argument above is garbage.
Having said all this, I actually think a 50/50 gender distribution typically helps in creating a healthier work atmosphere, mitigating the worst excesses of either gender. Male dominated work environments can run you ragged and be outright abusive when under a lot of competition.
<rant>But, I do not see any way to achieve this due to the asymmetry in the distribution of interest. When taken to its logical conclusion, average expendable (male) Software Engineers like me will be left hanging out to dry unlike average or below average women. And it galls me when my concerns get gaslighted as incompetent men who cannot handle the competition.
</rant>It's clearly a real pattern in open source. It's not just Rust and Go. And it's a stronger pattern than even being a FAANG engineer. I think it's because women are much less likely to take independent action solely on their own ideas and interests than men, and more likely to go with a socially-endorsed role. 'Spend a year making something that's open source, anonymously, just because you think the idea is good' isn't something there's a clear path you can 'follow a social gradient' towards to like 'having X job' does, and most open source projects just don't get interest. And (of course) explicit discrimination of any sort is a poor explanation, seeing as open source projects are anonymous - and both the overrepresentation of males and transes remains when you only look at 'open source projects made by people without employment or formal training in programming'
Said more clearly: The rate of being trans among techies (pretty high, but still <10%) isn't low enough that it outweighs the 'women don't do entirely independent self-driven activity' effect.
There are a lot of hobbies women have shown plenty of initiative and creativity in. It's just that the type of hobbies an average woman dedicates her leisure time to tends to be very different than that of men.
Most women seem to have a lower tolerance for hobbies that do not have some level of Social affirmation and interaction along the process. They are not as easily nerd sniped as men are.
I can blow a whole weekend, not speaking to a single soul, working on some obscure programming project like writing a TiddlyWiki launcher to reduce memory usage over the default Node.js launcher. A pointless investment of effort that will be of limited help for my employment prospects. No one else is going to use it or even see it. But it's fun though!
Women here make smarter choices. They demand more from their hobbies rather than just a short burst of satisfaction from solving some obscure problem. At the very least they expect it to have Social value. Though this may be changing with Social media addiction.
Footnote:
Reading what I wrote above, I realize, I have issues.
Dude, read some of my Friday Fun Thread posts. That sounds like a perfect weekend. It keeps you sharp.
I wonder if this behavior is truly more effective. It has a downside where one may feel unmotivated to do anything if no one is there to see them do it. They may also find it difficult to start tasks or leisure activities unless they have a group to join them.
More options
Context Copy link
It's not that women don't have "initiative" or "creativity" - plenty of female FAANG engineers show those. But a women is much less likely to ... purely of her own initiative, never having heard of the idea before. I agree, generally.
Not sure what this means, tbh? Your example weekend sounds fine. It also builds skill and technique for future, useful projects. How is it worse than gossiping about celebrities with friends in any way? There doesn't have to be a "you really WANT friendship but suppress that desire by doing lonely projects" psychoanalytic "issues", coding can just have something interesting that predominant forms of casual social interaction don't.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link