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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31010 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 15, 2023

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engineer an animal with naturally tame traits.

The definition you gave earlier yourself says nothing about tameness, only about human interest, and another person already showed you that we did change zebras from their wild variant.

The definition you gave earlier yourself says nothing about tameness,

I was specifically responding to the following statement by anti_dan: "One of the main points of a domestication program is to breed tamer traits while not breeding wilder, more rambunctious individuals."

another person already showed you that we did change zebras from their wild variant.

Which person was that?

I was specifically responding to the following statement by anti_dan: "One of the main points of a domestication program is to breed tamer traits while not breeding wilder, more rambunctious individuals."

Well, it seems like the correct response was to point out that even breeding a more aggressive variant still counts as domestication, if this is what you wanted to accomplish.

Which person was that?

Esperanza

Well, it seems like the correct response was to point out that even breeding a more aggressive variant still counts as domestication, if this is what you wanted to accomplish.

Why would I say that, when my point was that his statement, "Zebras can be trained to be tame" says nothing about whether zebras can be domesticated?

Esperanza

? Esperanza makes an unsupported claim that "Zebras have been modified by being bred in captivity," and then goes on to conflate taming with domestication. His one concrete ostensible example, Lord Rothschild, is specifically mentioned by Diamond on page 171 of my edition, as an example of what domestication is not.

Why would I say that, when my point was that his statement, "Zebras can be trained to be tame" says nothing about whether zebras can be bred to be tame.

Because the response I suggested makes the same point without contradicting the definition of domesticability you cited, which is what your response did.

? Esperanza makes an unsupported claim that "Zebras have been modified by being bred in captivity," and then goes on to conflate taming with domestication.

The part that says the ones we have larger and smaller captively bread zebras does not conflate the two, and fulfills the criteria from your definition. The lack of support is a valid argument, and maybe @Esperanza can elaborate and provide sources. But keep in mind under these criteria, the claim that the captive zebras are the same as the wild ones is also unsourced, despite the amount of ink spilled saying "no one domsesticated zebras".

His one concrete ostensible example, Lord Rothschild, is specifically mentioned by Diamond on page 171 of my edition, as an example of what domestication is not.

He didn't cite is as an example of domesticability, it was a tangent.

Because the response I suggested makes the same point without contradicting the definition of domesticability you cited, which is what your response did.

? I really don't understand why you think that. I linked to a definitiin which says it is "the process of hereditary reorganization of wild animals and plants into domestic and cultivated forms according to the interests of people. In its strictest sense, it refers to the initial stage of human mastery of wild animals and plants. The fundamental distinction of domesticated animals and plants from their wild ancestors is that they are created by human labour to meet specific requirements or whims..." I elsewhere quoted this definition by Diamond: "domesticated animal is defined as an animal selectively bred in captivity and thereby modified from its wild ancestors, for use by humans who control the animal's breeding and food supply."

There is nothing contradictory about accepting that tameness is one of the "interests" or "specific requirements" or "modif[ications]" that humans might select for in a particular species.

The part that says the ones we have larger and smaller captively bread zebras does not conflate the two, and fulfills the criteria from your definition. The lack of support is a valid argument, and maybe @Esperanza can elaborate and provide sources. But keep in mind under these criteria, the claim that the captive zebras are the same as the wild ones is also unsourced,

Note that I referenced two articles re the guy mentioned who raises zebras in Utah or thereabouts, both of which referred to them as being the same as wild ones. Obviously reporters often get things wrong, but that is not "unsourced." In contrast, Esperanza seems to be making things up. I just looked at several zebra selling websites, and none make that claim. Note also that 1) there are larger and smaller species of zebra; and 2) Esperanza's claim isn't even about domestication, which involves changes at the species level, rather than merely repeatedly having your largest stallion and mare have sex, then selling the foals. If you are not cross breeding the foals over generations, you are not engaging in artificial selection.

He didn't cite is as an example of domesticability, it was a tangent

Not how I read it.

Btw, Esperanza says "Obviously, their breeding is controlled by humans, " but perhaps not. This place says: "Most adult female zebras we sell are exposed to males and usually pregnant."

There is nothing contradictory about accepting that tameness is one of the "interests" or "specific requirements" or "modif[ications]" that humans might select for in a particular species.

But you didn't say it was "one of" when responding to him, you made it's sound like it's only requirement.

By the way, I wanted to come back to my earlier point about "if it didn't happen, it's only because we didn't want it to". Do you still believe this is in any way an unreasonable statement, given that literally any feature we pick to change on whim will be enough to meet your criterion?

Note that I referenced two articles re the guy mentioned who raises zebras in Utah or thereabouts, both of which referred to them as being the same as wild ones. Obviously reporters often get things wrong

Sorry, there's been too much posted here for me to keep up, so I missed the articles you're talking about. Can you link them again? In any case it's not even about reporters getting it wrong, this has Menken's Bathtub written all over it, I doubt anyone checked if the zebras we've been keeping for the last 100-200 years exhibit any changes from the wild ones.

Esperanza's claim isn't even about domestication, which involves changes at the species level, rather than merely repeatedly having your largest stallion and mare have sex, then selling the foals. If you are not cross breeding the foals over generations, you are not engaging in artificial selection.

But it's a collective process. If you are having your largest stallion and mare have sex, than selling the foals, and everybody else who owns zebras is doing the same, and has been doing the same for generations, you are engaging in artificial selection.

Btw, Esperanza says "Obviously, their breeding is controlled by humans, " but perhaps not. This place says: "Most adult female zebras we sell are exposed to males and usually pregnant."

Huh? That doesn't prove anything either way.

But you didn't say it was "one of" when responding to him, you made it's sound like it's only requirement.

No, I didn't, because he brought it up. And it doesn’t matter what trait he mentioned, because my point was about the logic of his argument, not the specific content: he erroneously equated breeding with domestication.

By the way, I wanted to come back to my earlier point about "if it didn't happen, it's only because we didn't want it to". Do you still believe this is in any way an unreasonable statement

It is a statement devoid of supporting evidence.

I doubt anyone checked if the zebras we've been keeping for the last 100-200 years exhibit any changes from the wild ones.

Perhaps, but the absence of evidence is hardly convincing evidence that it happened.

But it's a collective process. If you are having your largest stallion and mare have sex, than selling the foals, and everybody else who owns zebras is doing the same, and has been doing the same for generations, you are engaging in artificial selection.

Yes, but it is incumbent upon you to show that that has happened.

Huh? That doesn't prove anything either way.

It indicates that that organization, at least, is not controlling the breeding of their zebras.

No, I didn't, because he brought it up. And it doesn’t matter what trait he mentioned, because my point was about the logic of his argument, not the specific content: he erroneously equated breeding with domestication.

Sure, but in the process of addressing his claim you also introduced an error into your argument.

It is a statement devoid of supporting evidence.

What are you talking about, we have tonnes. We've gathered evidence for the mechanics of heritability since Gregor Mendel, and we know for a fact zebras operate by the same principles, because they don't randomly give birth to animals with wildly different features, nor do we see that they're perfect clones of each other. Given the available evidence, please tell me how what I said is supposed to be false?

Perhaps, but the absence of evidence is hardly convincing evidence that it happened.

Yes, but it is incumbent upon you to show that that has happened.

It's a little bit weird that you and Diamond get to make wild and sweeping claims like "zebras have never been domesticated" without providing evidence, while everybody has to do the work Diamond was supposed to, when he made the claim.

It indicates that that organization, at least, is not controlling the breeding of their zebras.

How? All it says is that most females were/are pregnant.

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