The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.
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Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.
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Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.
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Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).
Jump in the discussion.
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Stuck how? How do you feel your life would be different if you weren't stuck?
What are the major problems?
Do you have any goals you're currently working towards?
I’m stuck not having the social life I want. Other than my 1 close friend I’ve gotten worse at making and maintaining friendships. I just have too many disappointing experiences with sober social interactions that I’ve learned it is just hopeless to continue trying to cultivate friendships.
If psychedelics were legal I feel like I could get my life unstuck. I could make friends with people that explore psychedelics because they would be more open to being friends with a neurodiverse person. When I’m knowledgeable and/or passionate about a topic it becomes much easier for me to make friends. It just doesn’t work with psychedelics because it is not something I feel comfortable openly discussing due to the legal status. At the very least I could use psychedelics to change my perspective on life and feel more appreciative about things instead of focusing on what I missed out due to being on the autism spectrum.
I would say the major problem is that I don’t have the level of social connection that I desire (especially a girlfriend, even though I have a low sex drive). I also can’t openly discuss/explore psychedelics which has become a major passion of mine. The other things I’m interested in are mostly solitary and don’t lead to social connection.
I go to the gym and bicycle a lot, but I don’t really consider a goal because it is just a routine I’ve been doing for so long. I do have a goal to read a lot more this year. I already have a bunch of books selected, but I’ve been spending my reading time on Reddit instead of getting to the books. I also started a new job this year so my goal is to continue making a good impression and improving processes.
A lot of what you wrote in your OP resonated with me and I could see my younger self in much of it. My middle son, has an autism diagnoses . Many of areas where he struggles I also struggle(d).
I have work friends, and a few local friends, but I'd describe my wife as my best friend. When I was younger and single I had 'friends' to go out to pubs or clubs / dinner with, but none I'd describe as deep friendships and most involved some amount of alcohol.
16 - 26 was sort of a lost decade for me. Too much drinking, in spite of some negative consequences. Often drinking more than I wanted or had planned. Too much time in my own head. Lots of short 'relationships' that I seemed to stumble into and out of. Some sexual confusion, we called it expirementation at the time. There were periods of couch surfing. My family situation was unhelpful.
Following a series of professional setbacks (.com bust / airlines tanking after 9/11) I decided I needed a major change. I moved to Eastern Europe to teach English as a foreign language. Made an effort to drink less, spend more time outside and less in my head. Set short term goals, sometimes small ones, that would move me in the direction of long term goals. I tried to view the 'now' as an opportunity to setup future AvocadoPanic for success or failure. The chief long-term goal I set during this time was to be married before I was 30. While drinking less my libido returned, which while at times was uncomfortable, made it easier to identify women I was attracted to. I made an effort to meet women. I would become a regular places that women in the target cohort frequented. I did my best to be friendly an affable. Trying to be a good listener meant I had to talk less. If eye contact was too much I would look at their mouths or the center of their foreheads, I still worried at times if I was making too much or not enough 'eye contact'. I also tended to select locations that were dimmly lit or had pronounced shadows. Once I started viewing this as practice / developing a sociability skill set, the failures didn't bother me, it was all low stakes. I did initially struggle expressing my desire, most women still expected men to make the first move. Eventually one of these women I'd met in a pub, I encountered again at a birthday party. We married a bit less than 3 years later, 7 months before I turned 30.
Making friends seems to increase with difficulty as you age, especially for men. The most successful I've been has been through fraternal service organizations, Rotary, Lions Club, etc. I find the scheduled routine helpful. Meetings occur regularly, there's some structure, and there are opportunities for commitment / service. I find the routine easier to maintain if I feel slightly obligated to attend. Not all the local clubs will be the same, there were Rotary clubs I liked and some I didn't. Most of these traditional clubs welcome visitors and you can visit several to see if there's one you'd like. They're everywhere too, which if you move or relocate is very helpful.
Having children has also helped me meet people as there are lots of children's activities and parties where I can meet other dads.
We've also recently started attending church. Our local church aligns reasonably well our politics, there are no BLM, pride or Ukraine flags. I enjoy the fellowship and it's nice to meet similarly minded people from our town.
Professionally my work is uninspiring, but it allows me to support my family (just) in a mostly middle class lifestyle if we're careful and for my wife to be a homemaker. The work / life balance also allows me to be present nearly as much as I want for my wife and children. I could perhaps increase my income if I were will to adjust that balance. The 'politics' at work I still find confusing and somewhat difficult to navigate. I've found The Gervais Principle to be an accurate description of most of the larger organizations I've worked in. I don't believe that the guys adept at office politics or making more money are significantly happier or have better lives than I do.
You've mentioned the illegality of psychedelics several times, why do you see this as an impediment? Psychedelic mushrooms are easy to grow. There are jurisdictions where some psychedelics are permitted.
I typically prefer weed (cannabis) to alcohol now. Though I'm glad I didn't start as a teen. I don't think it would have been good for me.
Other than the gym and bicycling, what activities do you do regularly? Are there any that you particularly enjoy or have a talent for? Have you considered a cycle club?
Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful response.
There actually is something like a fraternal service organization near me that I’ve started exploring. I was recently thinking about how I might try to become more involved with it.
Every once in a while I’ll cycle with a friend, but I prefer cycling alone. I’ve come to be very content and at peace with being alone. I find social interactions too frustrating; the effort does not seem to be worth the reward anymore. I’ve only come to feel this way as I’ve hit my 30’s. When I was younger I was much more hopeful that my social skills would improve and that I could meet a girlfriend and add some close friends to my social circle. ‘System 2’ thinking now tells me just give up on improving social skills and focus more on being content with everything else in my life. However, there is still a ‘System 1’ desire for more social connection in my life. The ‘System 1’ desire is mostly buried when I’m sober.
I used to volunteer with dogs before the pandemic and I enjoyed that, but I never made any lasting connections from it (because I had a specific shift and you always interacted with the same handful of people). Sometimes I’ll get really interested/focused on the stock market, but I no longer try to actively invest – it caused too much anxiety and was a distraction to think about during work hours.
The thing with psychedelics is that there is a non-zero chance of something bad happening from breaking the law. I could lose my job or go to jail if I trusted the wrong person. Granted, this is very unlikely to happen especially because I live in a place where the enforcement of psychedelic laws is pretty lax. I still have anxiety about it though because I lack the social skills to navigate interactions about illegal activities. Additionally, I want to be able to openly talk about psychedelics with family/friends and I don’t feel comfortable doing that when they are illegal. It would just be another part of me that I have to keep quiet about around most people.
I understand you prefer cycling alone. I often prefer my own company. Throughout my life I've never felt lonely when alone. Participation in occasional group activities does not preclude preferred activities alone.
In a reply to another post you acknowledge when under the influence you can see that
This may be one of those patterns. I've found women, when evaluating a potential partner, like to see that he has friends. Also a larger social group, even fairly shallow attachments, are very helpful when looking for a spouse.
Participation in these groups may feel unnatural and unrewarding. I would encourage you to persist and try more / different groups and settings. Any Irish pubs near you that have a regular music session?
That makes sense, but I think the ‘crux’ of the issue something different.
To use an analogy: I would like to buy a house, but I don’t want to pay the current market price. If I buy a house I’ve made commitment that makes me more dependent on my job and that is a feeling that don’t like.
I want to be desired and liked by other people, but I don’t want to pay the cost of having to conform to the social rules. Then I have a lot of internal conflict because I have two competing desires: the desire not play ‘dumb’ social games and the desire to be liked. I can either be unhappy because I’m not desired by other people, or I can be unhappy because I’m playing ‘dumb’ social games.
I’m actually a well-known regular at some of the local bars. Lots of people chat with me (including women I find attractive) and I have fun social experiences. However, the people that like me at the bar like me because of my ‘clownish’ entertaining antics. I want to be desired because I’m a thoughtful, analytic, ‘nice’, and reliable person. But in order to ‘turn-on’ my social mode I have to be intoxicated to a level where I’m no longer very thoughtful or analytical. I can think of many ‘clownish’ ways to get attention that cause other people to like me. But I don’t want to be liked/desired for ‘clownish’ behavior. And I can’t figure out how to be socially successful without being ‘clownish’. The people I meet at bars want the fun guy that knows how to party, not the thoughtful/analytical guy that I’m the other 90% of the time.
It's been my experience that people like me, or find me attractive for reasons I don't or didn't expect. Frequently for reasons I didn't value or see in myself.
Having to be 'on' when out can be tiring.
I was fortunate, while being out and on, I found a thoughtful analytical woman. We enjoyed staying in, being quiet, thoughtful and analytical together.
Is it your perception that you're only liked when clowinsh?
Have you told any of the women that you've met that you're looking for a wife and mother of your children? Even if it's only in general and not her specifically?
It can help you by getting this larger social group that already likes you, even if your perception is that they only like the clown, to help you find the partner you want.
The universe is unlikely to send you a thoughtful, analytical, fertile women in a meet cute scenario. You need to actively look, and be upfront with what you want.
Telling women early you want a wife and children may scare some off. That's ok, they're not who your looking for. If you tell them and they stay, they're candidates. Don't take them to the places / times where you need to be on. Go places you can walk and talk and be thoughtful.
The advice for online dating, is to move to IRL as soon as possible. For me I needed to move to where I wasn't 'on' as soon as possible. Women that were looking for a light, easy goodtime would loose interest. Women that wanted a husband and father for their children may think, still waters run deep, and enjoy getting to know this truer self you reveal to her.
Do you have any proxies to help identify the sort of woman you want? For me, women in science, specifically lab sciences where she is or was doing bench work. I found many to be of a temperament that suited me. People often talk more about their work, than their personalities or desires in a partner. I've also found that how people talk about their work can be more revealing than their (mis)perceptions about themselves.
Also if there's anywhere you can go to be thoughtful and analytical that there are also women; public lectures / talks etc. These are good places to take women on 'dates', gives you something to discuss / argue about over a meal later.
It is my observation that I get a lot of attention and good reception when I’m intoxicated and clownish. I’ll talk to a double-digit number of strangers in the night and feel great about 90%+ of the interactions.
When sober I’m too shy to talk to strangers unless there is some shared purpose (such as needing to meet with an employee to discuss something for work). I’m also pretty sure I’m unknowingly giving off closed-off body language verbally so interactions quickly run out of steam and most people don’t initiate interactions with me.
I’m only looking for a long-term monogamous relationship but not marriage. Going through the breakup of a long-term relationship was one of my most emotionally devasting experiences in life. I can’t risk going through a divorce. I know the odds are stacked against me for having a successful marriage.
I have no interest in kids. I have too much trouble with social interactions and I would have trouble raising a kid. I don’t really like interacting with other people’s kids either. A kid would have higher risk of being on the autism spectrum.
I agree with you here. I should appreciate the attention that I get for being clownish and potentially people may also come to like my other qualities. Even the clownish behavior has an interesting backstory and does showcase some good qualities (like cleverness, confidence, and not being too uptight).
I feel like any of these could have potential:
Science background – proxy for interest in truth and not being too caught up in tribal politics.
Healthcare worker – Honest signal of selflessness (devoting yourself to tough career that isn’t all the financially rewarding compared to the alternatives).
Background in using/researching psychedelics – proxy for open-mindedness and having compassion for people with mental illness.
In a university town, or near a research hospital these women should be easy to meet. Finding the subset that's ok with no marriage, no kids, may be more challenging.
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If you want to get psychedelics without dealing with anyone in person, the dark web is the way to go.
But I also want to use them and do integration sessions under the supervision of a medical professional (or an experienced user at minimum).
Even with Phenibut I hit a vulnerable state on the comedown where I become aware of beliefs that I don’t notice when I’m sober. I become very open to admitting that my routines and patterns of behavior may not be optimal and I become very open to the idea of making changes. For instance, I’ll tell myself that I should connect more with people and make an effort to call people or message people more often. But then I sober up and my rational defenses return – I don’t like making phone calls and messaging people usually leads to pointless small talk so I avoid it. When I’m in the vulnerable state it would be great to have someone to talk through these things with so that I have a higher chance of following up when sober, or so that they can optimize the plan so it is more is more palatable to my sober self.
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