This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
There are no insights to be drawn from the comparison, because you never stop to define what a "mom" is. If "mom" is defined as "the person from whose womb a child sprung," then step-moms are not moms, and nor are women who use surrogate mothers. If it means, as you hint is can, "the person who nutured you in the manner that our society associates with motherhood," then a step-mother can be a mother. As can arguably a man. And different definitions can be used in different contexts; for the purpose of determining who has the right to due process before being deprived of parental rights, a stepmother who has not adopted her stepchild might not be deemed to be the child's mother. But for purposes of determining who gets to go to mother-daughter day at the ballpark, she probably is.
Similarly, whether a transwoman is a "real woman" depends entirely on the definition one uses. And, that, of course, is the root of the dispute. People on the right think that self-identification is completely meaningless, while those on the left think that it is the whole thing, at least for the issues that they care about. And, of course, self-identification is often all that defines group membership in many contexts. But obviously not all.
Two problems with that:
If man/woman is defined through self-identification, then the definition becomes recursive, and therefore useless. I have no idea whether or not I am a woman, because I don't know whether I identify as one, because I don't know what a woman is.
The left does not think it is the whole thing. Relatively recently there was a shooting, where the shooter identified as non-binary. No one on the left believed him.
Not necessarily. There are many instances in which group membership is defined through self-identification, especially for practical purposes. A relatively trivial example: Political party membership in the United States is generally based purely on self-identification; if I declare myself to be a Republican, I can vote in my state's Republican primary. Another example, though one of group self-identification, is the concept of the nation, which is often defined solely in terms of self-identification.(Of course, others push back and dispute that, but that is the point). Another example: "Rape victim." For the purposes of access to rape counseling services, "rape victim" is often defined as anyone who thinks she has been raped, even if, objectively, she has not been. The key there is "for the purposes of access to rape counseling services"; apparently, those who make such decisions deem it sound public policy to define membership in the group, "rape victim" to be based purely on self-identification. For other purposes, eg, criminal conviction of an alleged rapist, public policy might demand a different definition. The same is true of the definition of "woman." For some purposes, sound policy might demand defining "woman" as anyone who identifies as a woman. (Eg: if a high school class is reviewing for a test by having a boys versus girls Jeopardy game, letting anyone who identifies as a girl compete on the girl's team might be sound policy). For other purposes, sound policy might demand defining "woman" using objective criteria (eg, for the purpose of who gets to play "women's" sports).
So can you tell me how can I find out whether or not I am a woman?
Nope. The parties are specific organizations with specific structures, and a process of becoming a member, even if it's quite open. Saying "I'm a member of the Democratic party because I identify as a Democrat" is wrong if I haven't actually registered as a Democrat.
Nope. You can't suddenly declare yourself Japanese and be taken seriously.
Nope. At the very least being a rape victim requires that you had sex with someone.
This is sophistry. What this actually means is that you don't have to be a rape victim to get access to counseling services.
Using the same word for different purposes effectively changes it's definition, and what we are talking about is whether a self-ID based definition is useful, not whether different definitions are possible.
So let's say I'm supposed to be a player in this game, how am I supposed to pick a team if you won't tell me a non-selfID definition of "girl" or "boy"?
The "signing up" requirement does not strike me as particularly significant. It seems indistinguishable from saying I am a woman for the purpose of playing women's sports if I 1) identify as a woman; and 2) sign up for the woman's team. The difference, of course, is not the signing up, but the underlying public policy behind allowing someone to be a Democrat by simply declaring his identity and filing a form, and the underlying policy behind not allowing someone to be a member of the women's team simply by declaring his (her) identity and filing a form. Please note that I am not arguing one way or the other re who should be able to be on a women's team, nor who should be treated as a Democrat for purposes of voting in a primary. My point is simply that, sometimes, self-identification is all that matters.
Note that I referred to it as an example of group identity, not individual identity. If a group defines itself as "Ryukyuan" rather than "Japanese," then the Ryukyuan nation has sprung into being, at least under some definitions of "nation."
That's the point: For the purposes of providing services, it is perfectly possible to define "rape victim" as someone who feels they have been raped, regardless of whether they had sex or not. Again, the definition depends on the purpose for which it is being employed.
Yes, exactly. You can get services regardless of whether you meet objective criteria. That is the point: It is sound policy, in the view of those who provide the services, to define "rape victim" as anyone who subjectively believes they are a rape victim.
That's the point:
Teacher: "Let's review by playing Jeopardy, boys versus girls. Boys, move to the left of the class; girls move to the right"
Student: "But, what is the definition of "boy" and "girl."
Teacher: "For the purposes of the game, if you identify as a girl, you are a girl."
It is when you're talking about definitions, because it provides a referrer external to the definition itself. If there's no political party that you can sign up for, "a Democract is anyone who identifies as a Democrat" becomes meaningless.
This is like the goth example I used in the other comment - In practice there will have to be something that sets the group apart from others, or the word will lose it's meaning.
Ok, but all you're doing in those cases is saying "a rape victim is someone who wants to use these specific services" and "a girl is anyone who wants to play on Team A rather than Team B", you're not actually defining either of these groups through self-ID.
I you want to claim that the definition of gender identity does not depend on the team I want to play, you actually have to answer my original question in a non-self-referential way: what is a woman? I cannot know if I identify as one, unless I know what a woman is.
But we are not talking about in practice. We are talking about whether the definition is irrational. . Besides, the whole claim of transgender advocates is that that which truly sets "women" apart from "men" is shared by both ciswoman and transwomen, and that the differences between them are unimportant. That is obviously debatable, but they actually agree with you in principal. And note that, in regard to national identity, debates about what similarities and differences are relevant (and hence whether claims to national self-determination should be recognized in practice) are commonplace.
No, I am not. For example, re the classroom teams, if Pat identifies as a girl, she is assigned to the girl's team, regardless of whether she wants to be on that team or not. Because the only criterion is her gender identity.
But we're living in the real world, and we're subject to it's constraints. A definition might make sense in a parallel universe where our constraints do not apply, but using it here makes no sense.
In any case after giving it more thought, like your other examples, this is just playing word games to hide the fact that definition is not self-ID. Yeah, people can get together, form a group, and put whatever label they want on it, but the group is defined by it's members, not by it's label, which is why you cannot suddenly identify yourself into being Japanese. Trying to sidestep it with "oh, I was talking about collective self-ID" doesn't work either, because from a collective perspective one nation cannot relabel itself to lay claim to being another nation. China is sort of trying to do that with Taiwan, but no matter how many declarations are issued that there is only one China, everybody knows that the entities are separate. The opposite wouldn't work either, if PRC relabeled itself to ROC to lay claim to Taiwan, it would be no different than PRC just declaring war and laying claim to Taiwan.
Except you explicitly specified the definition is only for the purposes of the game, and within the game there is no way to tell whether or not someone identifies as a boy or girl except for which team they chose to play on. So you are doing that.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link