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Of course there is a difference! But I’m not here to do a culture war and discuss the finer points on gender transitioning, merely illustrate that trans acceptance is not as clear cut when it comes to minors in my value system. I’ve adopted the value partially because I think the transition of minors today is similar to experiments done in the past, if people here feel that I committed a fallacy then do whatever you want with it. I’m not here to change your mind, I’m giving you an opportunity to change mine.
Ok. So. You said they're equally foul. Was that hyperbole? I'm not clear on how you got there. Do you think the two victims are equally traumatized?
Why do you think the experiments are similar? Because they both involve difficult to reverse body modification?
Do you think whether or not the child says they want something initially is completely irrelevant to how ethical it is? That only what they think later matters? Do you have the same position on- say, women who consent to sex in the moment but decide later that they didn't want sex and they were coerced into it? Do you think that is 'equally foul' to violent rape?
Forget changing your mind, right now, I'm either not grasping your foulness metric at all or simply not believing it's your actual metric.
I'm not a big believer in changing minds via debate anyway. It's more effective to change them via friendship and familiarity and positive experiences.
Well, as long as you know that’s what you’re doing, and what everyone else sees you’re doing.
Listen. If you don't those close to you to be susceptible to love bombing in general, make sure their needs are met.
But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about sitting around a table at board game night and having fun. I'm talking about...
People hate TRAs because of their negative experiences with TRAs. If they had positive experiences with them they wouldn't hate them as much.
People think transition is awful because they're experiencing the miserable trans people and not the happy ones.
Most people operate on induction and bayes. It's pretty simple.
I happen to think transition is terrible because it's poor quality, one-way, body modification sold to kids as a cure for all their problems.
The people I know seem satisfied with the product. They also don't want to change back and it solved a bunch of their problems.
But you're pointing at more concrete concerns about the people it isn't going well for right?
If TRAs were more willing to open a dialogue about those concerns...
Well. You might still not end up agreeing but I don't see it being so vitriolic.
If the goal is becoming a woman, then the product cannot be seen as anything other than a poor substitute. If the goal is looking like a woman, it's somewhat better, but still pretty hit or miss.
Sort of. It's concern for people who are considering transition, and we don't know yet whether it's going to go good for them or not. If there was a way to know ahead of time that would immediately resolve a lot of issues I have.
Yes! The stifling of the debate raises a lot of concerns for me, not just on freedom of speech grounds, but also on the "if you had good arguments, wouldn't you want to show them off?" grounds.
other goals include: having estrogen in your brain, gender euphoria, watching your body change as you go through a second female puberty, moving in the direction of femininity, learning to master your preferred gender expression...
You can totally figure it out ahead of time too- you can present as female online behind a digital mask, you can take hormones for 2 weeks with no permanent effects, you can see how it feels when people treat you like the other gender-
It sounds like a lot of people are pushing forward too quickly... or feeling bad and assuming that it will all be ok once the transition is finished? If it's not feeling good the whole time that's a bad sign. If you want an emotionally healthy transition you need to be someone who is enjoying the journey, because yeah. You can't be certain about the destination.
Sure, if you treat estrogen as a recreational drug, I guess it makes sense, but that's not how it's being sold right now.
I'm not convinced that even exists.
Since you're an unabashed transhumanist, I can see how these make sense for you, but that kind of looks like these things are supposed to be an end in themselves, which is, again, not how transition is sold.
You don't really need to transition for that.
I'm not sure that would work. When something is sold as a solution to your problems, going through with it will tend to give you a rush of euphoria. Also the sunk cost fallacy will also make you shout down lingering doubts. I don't think 2 weeks on hormones would be enough.
I'm not sure I believe this would solve all the issues, but it would be a marked improvement over the status quo.
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