site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 26, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Thank you, that helps put things into context.

That being said, this seems to be to suggest that there's a large degree of misalignment between the MOD and whoever sanctioned the creation of Wagner in the first place. It seems to me that Wagner largely behaved itself, both abroad and at home, and the MOD's hardline approach suggests more of an internal powerplay than something that Putin was directly orchestrating. Of course, I don't think Prigozhin could lash out at the MOD and not insult Putin in the process, you don't beat the servant without asking the master, especially if you're another servant.

You're trying to infer the nature of MoD relationship with Putin, as well as Putin motivation out of the situation, that's very understandable. However it's worth noting that Putin himself goes into great efforts to hide his involvement and the nature of his involvement with MoD(or anything and anyone else). It allows him to bank on the winner effectively and to maintain the image of 10D player while he's not doing anything or doing very little. So I wouldn't overestimate Putin's involvement or 300 iq moves out of it. He's likely to largely follow the flow making simple, boring and suggestive, however consistent decisions. Whatever happens - you can always smirk and suggestively joke about it maintaining composure. And half of the world starts - oooh, he planned it 15 years ago! Aaah, 10D chess! He's just consistent and avoids emotional steps, that's the whole chess.

Wagner was created to solve external military tasks in Syria/Africa, and proved it's an effective tool there. But then MoD screwed the war and were scrapping for anything they can throw in the fire, so Wagner was relocated. So Wagner is by nature of its creation is quite an independent corporation, which makes sense abroad, but that independence backfired in Ukraine clearly. MoD tried to control it but failed. Or "succeeded" if you can count the current state of things as success.

That being said, this seems to be to suggest that there's a large degree of misalignment between the MOD and whoever sanctioned the creation of Wagner in the first place.

Presumably that was the point - what passes for separation of powers in an autocracy.

It may just be that it's apparently no longer a luxury Russia can afford in such a pivotal and unsuccessful war. Or Prigozhin is now sufficiently weak/used up that it isn't worth it.

I don't think the attempted gelding would have gone ahead without Putin's support, given he set up this situation, but it's hardly the most transparent regime.