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ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   Edited 1yr ago   38240 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 12, 2022

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And this is where all the race-swapping in pre-built fantasy worlds gets me. These are worlds that already have established phenotypes for it's inhabitants. Already have, and frequently center in the oral history told to the character, the movements of those peoples.

Except they are not the same version as the original. As mentioned above Ultimates Nick Fury is different than 616 Fury (originally at least). In this version of the LoTR history there are black dwarves. They can change the background so in that universe it is not regarded as "cucking their population" or whatever. Now the Doylist reason for that is increasing diversity representation or etc., and that is a reasonable position to oppose. But from a Watsonian perspective your pre-knowledge about how there would only be black characters because of post-racial globalization no longer holds. You can dislike the change, but you seem to be saying that it HAS to have the same background as our world. That black dwarves came from some Africa equivalent, rather than being a magical mutation, or any other reason under the sun. Perhaps when Aule created the seven fathers of the dwarfs, they were different shades and Valar magic means one seventh of the population will always be black. Your assumption seems to be that there can only be black characters in this version if they come from some far off place, and in Tolkien's original that may be the case. But this is not that. It is an adaption.

Tolkiens novel's may have had established phenotypes, but the adaptions may or may not. The black dwarf can be a native, so can a white dwarf (Grombrindal aside perhaps). Plausible world building does not require that it matches our own world's history. To me, Tolkien's histories don't even make internal sense in the first place, so adding some extra features that also don't make sense is barely an issue. I might raise an eyebrow if they revealed Middle-Earth was on the back of a turtle, but I would at least be looking forward to seeing the Patrician in action.

The fact there are magical god-Wizards and the earth was flat until it became round and there wasn't a sun but the world was lit by trees, already shows that the history can depart radically from our own. In this version, it is altered more such that there are black dwarves or hobbits or whatever. To me the latter seems a much smaller departure than the former. Since I accept the former as part of the world, I can also accept the latter.

Now if you don't suspend your belief for either, then that is a different and quite reasonable objection. If you're like the aforementioned biologist complaining that dragons that big could never fly with those wings, or that clearly the elven stories about the world having once been flat and lit by trees are clear nonsense, then complaining about phenotypes also makes sense, you're grounding the world in our reality and finding it lacking. But that isn't the objection I mostly seem to see.

  • -11

In this version of the LoTR history there are black dwarves. They can change the background so in that universe it is not regarded as "cucking their population" or whatever.

Original Nick Fury was of Irish descent, Fury/Furey is an Irish surname. They can change white Nick to black Nick because the Watsonian explanation is in-universe it is a multiverse. The Doylist explanation is that (a) they thought it would be cool to have Samuel Jackson in the part and (b) comics ret-con stories all the time.

That's not the case here. If you could argue convincingly that Middle-earth is in a multiverse situation, then fine, black Dwarves and Chinese hobbits and whatever else you like. But Middle-earth, although a fictional creation, is not meant to be some imaginary world out there in the vast universe, it is supposed to be our world in the very, very remote past.

You can't argue that "Okay now these North-Western Europeans from the dawn of history who are all deliberately created for Tolkien's view of a native English mythology are non-white, just because". There is no "in this version", there is compliant with canon or their own invention.

And they are going for their own invention, but they skipped making Galadriel black because they knew there was no possible way to get away with that, and arguing about "but in this version" wouldn't cut it. They didn't want black Galadriel or black Elrond or black Dain, because they wanted to draw in people with the lure of the original movies.

Of course Aule could have created black Dwarves, and if the showrunners spent two minutes crafting some coherent explanation for how come Dísa is a black Dwarf, then yeah I'd accept the "only racists are objecting" argument. But they didn't, and the show relies on "we're doing this, and the only reason you're objecting is because you are a racist".

What is much, much worse than one (1) black Elf amongst all the white Elves and one (1) black Dwarf amongst all the white Dwarves is the terrible writing, the leaden fake-profound dialogue, and changing the character of Galadriel to be some 90s Grrl Power bratty teenager. I don't even care about the whole "Galadriel was never a warrior" argument, because I think she had some experience of battle and fighting, but Tolkien's point again and again and again is that running around killing things is not the way to live:

From Laws and Customs Among The Eldar

For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi[Elven women]; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or in desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.

For Tolkien, the show's version of Galadriel is not a heroine, but someone profoundly damaged and in need of healing. The showrunners can burble on about their own updated to reflect the modern world version all they like, but they cannot claim this is Tolkien's world. They cannot eat their cake and have it, too.

That's not the case here. If you could argue convincingly that Middle-earth is in a multiverse situation, then fine, black Dwarves and Chinese hobbits and whatever else you like. But Middle-earth, although a fictional creation, is not meant to be some imaginary world out there in the vast universe, it is supposed to be our world in the very, very remote past.

In the books Glorfindel drives back the Nazgul. In the movies it is Arwen. Two different versions of the same story. Each is a separate contained universe. One is the original and the other is an altered adaption. You don't need an (internal to the story) multiverse for that. It's an issue that already exists. The 80's animation, the books, the movies, the extended version of the movies.

And if they pay the licensing fee to Tolkiens estate they absolutely can claim that. They bought it fair and square. With caveats of what they could and could not do. Art can be bought and sold.

They replaced Glorfindel with Arwen, and while I hate this choice, I understand it.

They did not replace Glorfindel with a single mother brown Human healer from an invented village in the far South populated by the descendants of the Men who fought in Morgoth's armies, and had Jackson even tried doing that, the first movie would have sunk like a stone that looks down into the darkness which is why it does not float like a ship that looks up at the light.

They did not have Japanese Elrond or Hispanic Legolas.

Think about what you are saying, because what you are saying is "Amazon are making their own version of a fantasy world and just calling it Middle-earth", which is in agreement with what the rest of us are arguing about.

If a Chinese studio wanted to do a version of LOTR and cast every single part with Chinese actors - it would be feckin' glorious because they know how to do epic fantasy and ethereally beautiful people of fairy descent. I would not say a single word about it.

I would, however, squawk like a goose if they decided that Gondor was in fact the Qin Dynasty and Númenor had been Korea, and cast accordingly with the rest of the parts being White European as per the book.

They replaced Glorfindel with Arwen, and while I hate this choice, I understand it.

They did not replace Glorfindel with a single mother brown Human healer from an invented village in the far South populated by the descendants of the Men who fought in Morgoth's armies, and had Jackson even tried doing that, the first movie would have sunk like a stone that looks down into the darkness which is why it does not float like a ship that looks up at the light.

Right but your original point was that you needed a multiverse to have different versions. But that isn't the case (which you seem to accept), which is fine, now we are back to objecting to the SPECIFIC changes made, which is also fine I think. Let me rephrase. If you dislike the race swapping because:

  1. No changes should be made at all, Arwen replacing Glorfindel is also wrong (and what happened to Tom Bombadil, Jackson you monster!)- entirely reasonable in my view (maybe a minority opinion across the population, but when has that ever stopped us here?)

  2. The changes they made were not explained appropriately within the setting - entirely reasonable in my view.

  3. The changes they made were explained within the setting, but I don't accept that change because black people can't be natives of this area of Middle Earth, no matter how well it is explained in universe. - this seems like it may be an issue (again in my opinion) - see below.

  4. I don't care about the Watsonian reasons, I object because of the Doylist reasons for the change (i.e. creators pushing diversity in casting) are ones I dislike for x reason - entirely reasonable in my view (I may disagree with it, but it is I think it is a reasonable position to hold).

Going back to your example, if the makers of RoP had a flashback to Aule creating dwarfs and revealed he made them in different skin colors, I think you said, that you would be ok with this. (Please correct me if I am wrong!) but the OP I was responding to seemed to be of the opinion that if you included anyone black they would HAVE to be explained as a foreigner within the concept space of this version of the show and also import our own race dynamics such that it should also be regarded as racial "cucking" et al. That's the part that I think is a little unreasonable.

None of that should be taken to say that the writers have indeed explained it, or even agree with me that they should. More discussing the hypothetical.

You need a multiverse to have black Arwen, which was your argument; you're the one who brought up Marvel universe and Nick Fury is white in one Earth and black in another.

You can't skip from "different versions belong in different universes" to "different versions in the same universe" as it suits your argument. Either Middle-earth is indeed different in every version, in which case Amazon do not get to call it Tolkien's work, or it's the same world in the different versions.

You're trying to argue that we could change George Washington to a New Zealand Maori because hey, a history text book is different from a painting of him crossing the Delaware is different to the movie made about the Revolutionary War.

You can't skip from "different versions belong in different universes" to "different versions in the same universe" as it suits your argument. Either Middle-earth is indeed different in every version, in which case Amazon do not get to call it Tolkien's work, or it's the same world in the different versions.

Ok, so what is your interpretation of Jackson's movies? Is it Lord of the Rings? Is it Tolkien's work? Marvel deal with it using multiverse within their overall meta universe (though whether their tv shows and movies are part of that comics metaverse seems to change, is the MCU Earth-616 or 199999 for example?)

Given we already have multiple versions of Lord of the Rings properties, how do you see those? That is what I am really trying to get at. Forget what the specific differences are, if Jackson's movies had been identical to the book except for the Arwen/Glorfindel change for example. Is it Lord of the Rings? Is it Tolkien or not?

Is your position that ANY change invalidates calling it Lord of the Rings or is your issue with specific changes?

Edit: I think you kind of answered this below actually.

Except they are not the same version as the original.

In this version of the LoTR history...

There are no "versions". There are just things that are Lord of the Rings, and things that are not Lord of the Rings. This is not Lord of the Rings. It's a bastardized cash grab pushed out by cultural vandals who hate and disdain everything the original represented.

I'm not a fan of any "living document" interpretations.

Ahh, well, that is where we differ I think. The books, the 80's movie, the Jackson Trilogies, and the new series have fundamental incompatibilities. Jackson replaces Glorfindel with Arwen. for example. That doesn't stop his trilogy being Lord of the Rings. It isn't the original version. But it also isn't something entirely new.

It's a bastardized cash grab ** -agreed-** pushed out by cultural vandals who hate and disdain everything the original represented. - I disagree here, they may have a different view of things, but reading some interviews with the writers it certainly does not appear that they "hate and disdain" everything. They have different views than they do, of course but that isn't the same thing.

Jackson replaces Glorfindel with Arwen. for example

Is Glorfindel an Elf? Is Arwen an Elf? Or is Arwen a Sassy Black Girl?

Because one of these things is not like the other.

Indeed, but the first argument is whether any changes can be made at all. Then we can discuss object level changes and how acceptable they are. If we don't agree on the first part, there is no point discussing if specific changes are ok are not.

Can changes be made when adapting something in one medium for a work in a different medium? Yes.

Can we make any changes we like? No.

There you go, my opinion on the matter.

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