site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Scott: Highlights from the comments on British economic decline.

Britain is suffering a decline in productivity and income which isn’t fully reflected in nominal GDP statistics.

This could be because it’s expressed in a declining pound, rather than in declining nominal wages/profits. I don’t know enough economics to feel like I have good intuitions about declining currency values.

It could also be partly because post-recession economic growth happened more in new employment than in higher wages for the already-employed.

Potential causes are Brexit, a dysfunctional real estate market, and underinvestment in R&D - but low confidence in all of these.

I’m interested particularly as a follow up to my discussion with @FirmWeird. Here we have an economy that struggles, where the citizens recognize it struggles, but the standard indicators look normal. I wanted to see if this would show up in the energy metrics we were discussing, but this data stops too early to say.

I really expect to see its energy per capita tank. Wealth getting swallowed up in housing has to push down energy consumption, at least compared to capital investment. I don’t think the UK has had anything like the shale boom distorting its cost per BTU, either.

I think so. When a country is replacing automatic car washes with immigrants holding buckets, it's clear that immigration affects productivity.

https://theconversation.com/the-return-of-the-hand-car-wash-and-the-uks-productivity-puzzle-39594

Perversely, instead of using the high-tech cleaners at garages we choose to pay others to wash our cars using the most inefficient of methods – a hose, bucket, water, soap and sweat. The hand car wash has grabbed around half of the commercial car wash market in the UK.

Yeah, the reason for that is that the "high tech cleaner at the garage" is pretty much a set of revolving brushes that blow soapy water over the car as it drives through where you have to remove aerials, fold in the wing mirrors, and so on yourself. Car valeting services (the hand car wash) offer a 'premium' service - they promise to get the car clean in all the nooks and crannies the car wash misses, they'll clean the inside as well, do detailing etc. as you require:

We specialise in all areas of mobile car valeting and detailing offering many different levels of services from just a quick exterior wash or interior clean to a whole showroom interior and exterior makeover!

Take car care to the next level with our range of detailing services, including paint correction, enhancement and protection detailing.

So if you're going to get your car cleaned, you might decide that instead of a quick automated wash, you'll hand it in for the full service and get a shiny, new-smelling car back without having to lift a finger yourself.

We're living in a service economy now, you have the choice between quick automatic wash or full service wash. Does the author of that piece complain that "nowadays, perversely, instead of getting the high-tech vending machine instant coffee people go to special shops that have humans making hot and cold beverages by hand!"

Presumably the argument is that, in a country running hot, there would be many high-paying jobs in growing areas. The people now hand-washing cars would be doing those jobs and tempting them back would require larger salaries than most people can afford. In other words, the author is complaining about the absence of Baumol's cost disease.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-disease-explained

On the other hand: in Scott's post he discusses how the PPP GDP is the metric which has suffered, as opposed to the market-exchange GDP. That is to say—the recent decline seems to be one of purchasing parity, where your money doesn't buy as much.

For easily-transportable goods, which could just as well be sold in any country, this doesn't apply much: you get pretty much the market exchange rate. It is the non-transportables, like services, which are cheaper in some countries than others, leading to a PPP adjustment.

That is: the complaint that PPP hasn't caught up is a complaint that labor is particularly expensive, that services are affected by Baumol's cost disease or the like. Developing countries typically have favorable PPP exchange rates, because they have plenty of cheap labor; people who don't have better things to do with their time than to work for cheap.

If we accept the difference between PPP GDP and market-exchange GDP as describing the issue, that seems to imply that the problem is that there is too much cost disease (or other reasons why labor is generally expensive), not too little.