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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32656 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

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I don't believe for a second that this was an inevitable war forced on a reluctant Putin.

How do you choose to interpret the Minsk Accords? If the west is unwilling to respect your security concerns. The problem I see in your logic is that it fails to take the Russia side of the equation seriously. This is why I ask you the same question the pro-western side can’t answer either. Given the events leading up to the crisis, if you were Putin, what would you have done?

Yes. I'm also extremely confident he no longer has popular support in Ukraine.

Interesting that you seem to suggest coups can be justified in light of this logic. It wouldn’t surprise me why the west would believe it. That’s the inherent nature of political hypocrisy and duplicity. But it’s also good to know that disputing democratic elections is now in vogue if the vote goes the wrong way. The US proved that when it disputed the results of the people in Donetsk and Luhansk.

If the west is unwilling to respect your security concerns.

If Russia would invade and conquer Spain they would complain about security concerns posed by Portugal.

Russia's problem is that they want to be treated as superpower. They are not. That is why West refused to treat their demands seriously (and they demanded for example demilitarization of Poland and similar nonstarters).

Given the events leading up to the crisis, if you were Putin, what would you have done?

Try to unfuck Russia. Starting from stealing less.

Definitely avoid speedrunning population collapse in Ukraine and Russia by increasing scope of ongoing war.

Interesting that you seem to suggest coups can be justified in light of this logic.

Yes, for example I am 100% fine with couping genocidal leaders, also when they were elected as long as there is plausible less murderous alternative. (note: not claiming that this specific one was genocidal, just giving a clear example where it would be blatantly correct if alternatives were exhausted)

I am not treating democracy procedures as the highest virtue. Note that in this specific cases current ruler had no support from population. Whether Maidan was a coup or not is an interesting question BTW.

If Russia would invade and conquer Spain they would complain about security concerns posed by Portugal.

If the Warsaw Pact incorporated Mexico and Canada, the US would complain about being surrounded by an encroaching military alliance.

Russia's problem is that they want to be treated as superpower. They are not. That is why West refused to treat their demands seriously (and they demanded for example demilitarization of Poland and similar nonstarters).

No. No, they really don’t.

Try to unfuck Russia. Starting from stealing less.

What do you think the Minsk Accords were? This is about right up there with thinking if Putin just spent a little more money on domestic social programs, NATO wouldn’t try to expand into Ukraine.

Yes, for example I am 100% fine with couping genocidal leaders.

And what’s your empirical evidence for this?

No. No, they really don’t.

To which part it refers? That Russia wants to be treated as superpower? That they are not one? That they demanded removal of all NATO military from Poland (which includes Polish military)?

And what’s your empirical evidence for this?

For what? For that I am 100% fine with couping genocidal leaders, if alternatives failed?

If the Warsaw Pact incorporated Mexico and Canada, the US would complain about being surrounded by an encroaching military alliance.

And? Not sure whether you prefer realpolitik or some naively idealistic answer but neither works out well for Russia.

To which part it refers? That Russia wants to be treated as superpower? That they are not one?

Yes.

For what? For that I am 100% fine with couping genocidal leaders, if alternatives failed?

Yes.

And? Not sure whether you prefer realpolitik or some naively idealistic answer but neither works out well for Russia.

Then you should have no problem with the way they’ve responded, given that the US is unlikely to behave any differently in comparable circumstances.

I think that for empirical evidence whether I am 100% fine with couping genocidal leaders, if alternatives failed - then comment here suffices:

I am fine with it

To which part it refers? That Russia wants to be treated as superpower? That they are not one?

Which of two? First seems obvious, second is also obvious given that they are unable to win war against Ukraine supplied a bit by NATO countries and run into series of hilarious failures.

Then you should have no problem with the way they’ve responded, given that the US is unlikely to behave any differently in comparable circumstances.

  1. USA would likely respond differently, and in fact as far as Canada goes they already proactively responded differently by ensuring that Canada and USA cooperates and Canada benefits from powerful USA rather than being endangered. (not sure about Mexico)

  2. not sure why you think that I would be fine with USA responding in such way, or even in a noticeably less evil and murderous one. I am not some cultist treating all USA actions as fine (and yes, I know about United Fruit Company and Abu Ghraib).

I am fine with it

So I’ll ask for a third time. What is your evidence that Vladimir Putin is a genocidal maniac?

Which of two? First seems obvious.

Based on what?

USA would likely respond differently.

How so? “Please Mr. Putin, will you remove your presence from our borders?” Seems to me to be the kind of think you’re suggesting. Doesn’t seem to be the kind of thing that happened during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Thankfully we had a cabinet that didn’t lead with the premise that Khrushchev was a genocidal leader.

I am not some cultist treating all USA actions as fine (and yes, I know about United Fruit Company and Abu Ghraib).

But you sure seem to think it’s the exception and not the rule.

So I’ll ask for a third time. What is your evidence that Vladimir Putin is a genocidal maniac?

I am not claiming that Putin is a genocidal maniac, and their action while evil and qualifying as war crimes are not Third Reich levels. Though we had terror bombing, kidnappings, rape/looting as accepted (though not sure how high) and so on. But I am aware that all that is relatively normal in war and their main evil was starting war.

Based on what?

Based on their inability to understand that they are not entitled to USSR territory and that their security concerns are not trumping everyones elses security concerns.

How so? “Please Mr. Putin, will you remove your presence from our borders?” Seems to me to be the kind of think you’re suggesting.

I am not 100% naive idealist, that would not work :)

No, likely also war but with less bombing of civilian targets and less hilarious incompetence. Very likely ending with lower civilian death count and lower destruction. And lesser oppression during occupation.

But you sure seem to think it’s the exception and not the rule.

I am claiming that I would prefer to be invaded by USA than Russia, but even more prefer to be not invaded in the first place. And no, I will not buy this books.

… their main evil was starting war.

Did they not make overtures to avoid it? Because they certainly did.

Based on their inability to understand that they are not entitled to USSR territory and that their security concerns are not trumping everyones elses security concerns.

Where did Putin ever claim as much? Go ahead and quote him. I’ll wait.

… with less bombing of civilian targets and less hilarious incompetence.

I wasn’t aware their track record was as bad as the US war in Iraq.

I am claiming that I would prefer to be invaded by USA than Russia, but even more prefer to be not invaded in the first place.

You also seem to prefer being more interested in answering your own questions, and not those that were asked if you. I think this is a good place to leave this conversation.

And no, I will not buy this books.

Or even read them. Be well.

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