site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

12
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

True, but do you want to live in a society where the rich and powerful are all the sort of people who cheat on their wives?

As in the 90s so too today, right wingers get fed up of virtue-signalling lefties and campaign for putting amoral bastards in charge. This backfires, because:

  1. They’re not conservative, and therefore not interested in rolling back left wing cultural victories. The assault is paused but not repelled.

  2. It gives conservatives a bad reputation. (Which they often later try to repudiate by embracing left wing ideas).

  3. Amoral bastards are amoral and will drop you in a heartbeat once it looks like you’re losing power.

Dream big! Hold out for competence and virtue.

I'd like to reply to both you and @raggedy_anthem on this: what if competence is a virtue unto itself? We may then just be prioritizing for different kinds of virtues.

I don’t think you can separate effectiveness from goals. I don’t want someone who strangles women and eats their livers for fun to get better at it! To take an extreme case, obviously.

If you mean these people are competent in their standard jobs, but have bad social lives, then I get that. It’s why I voted for Boris Johnson - I thought he was an amoral attention seeker but smart enough to know where his support was coming from. In the end he was an amoral attention seeker who prioritised the good opinion of his wife and her friends and landed us with terrible plans for net zero and a country that is veering open-borders left just as Europe is finally getting its act together.

Let’s face it, we aren’t spoilt for choice a lot of the time and we have to take what we can get. But not valuing virtue at all is silly imo.

True, but do you want to live in a society where the rich and powerful are all the sort of people who cheat on their wives?

We do live in that society, though, and I don’t think there has ever been a society that was not like that, unless they simply defined cheating in such a way as to exclude rich powerful men committing adultery.