site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 21, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

14
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

his claim to believe in God is one of those useful lies

What makes you say this? Plenty of Hindus actually believe in God, as do plenty of American conservatives.

Among 2nd generation Indian-Americans, I literally don't know a single one who believes that Vishnu, Shiva, Kali, etc. all exist as separate entities. They're more or less panentheists that sometimes pray to a one of the Devas (usually Shiva or an incarnation of Vishnu) as the personality of The Absolute. Sometimes they don't even do this and their beliefs are indistinguishable from New Age spirituality (which ofc is heavily influenced by Hinduism).

As far as I'm aware, all candidates for President at least present as religious, even if in practise they're agnostic or atheist. I don't know if it's viable to run as an openly atheist candidate, but I suspect not.

Most UMC/PMC Indians abroad are "culturally religious", without any true belief. This is also true back home, but to a different degree. You can just be a de-facto atheist and pass as Hindu, there's no need to show up to temples on Sunday.

Given everything I know about him, I strongly suspect he's just going through the motions, not that anyone can say for sure.

Still remember the day I "came out" as atheist in my Hindu family and they just shrugged it off as if it was no big deal. I even had an angry 'neo-atheist' phase for a couple of years before realizing that Hinduism just sort of accepted Atheism at face value.

My mom was like, "I need you to visit for festivals, be a good person and just join your hands with the family every once in a while. You can talk to whoever you like in your own head, just don't get angry when I ask my Ganpati to bring you good luck." Hell, I thought my dad was irreligious my whole life, until my mom told me he was deeply religious, but he did not feel worthy of praying to ask a God for good luck ! Turns out he'd pray by himself daily, just in non-visible spaces.

Hinduism is funny that way. It's lack of scripture allows it to be something and nothing at the same time. Yet, when it is around, you can tell. If a group of heterogenous people strongly self-identify under a common umbrella of Hinduism, then who am I to disagree ?

Indians abroad are "culturally religious", without any true belief.

This is an unfair accusation, because it quietly defines religion from an Abrahmic lens. Being culturally religious is what Hinduism is all about. Both Dharma and Karma are defined within a localized context of your profession, family & conditions. So, it is hard to have any uniform optics for Hinduism. If a person lives a Dharmic life with an awareness of Karma, then they're Hindu. Even if it has no ties to a specific God.

Yes, I understand that this means a person who performs Hindu actions with Hindu intentions, will be Hindu irrespective of which religion they follow. Hinduism doesn't require mutual exclusivity in tribal associations. As the head of the RSS (India's largest political Hindu organization) says, "If you are born in India, you're Hindu. You can be a Muslim-Hindu, Christian-Hindu or an Atheist-Hindu. Just gotta align your intentions and actions. A lot of spiritual atheist rationalists appear pretty Hindu to me.

I've been an atheist since the age of 5, I've only prayed earnestly once in my life, and that's to Krishna when my mom was pregnant because I was looking forward to a baby brother.

With how he turned out, I immediately turned atheist /s. (Still love him tho, even if his ADHD is even worse than mine)

My parents are mildly religious, they observe most festivals, visit temples on vacation, and idly contemplate going on pilgrimage to those random ass holy shrines up in the Himalayas (it would probably kill their backs).

Even then, when religion simply didn't take in me, because even at that age I could see that no religion was a remotely good fit for both the world around me and the behavior of its denizens, they never forced me to pray, at most I was dragged along to a bunch of temples and forced to sit glumly during some festivals until I got a little older and refused to attend whatsoever.

Nobody forced me to practise, nor did they care particularly much.

Most Hindus I've met have been entirely chill about it too, nobody has tried to proselytize to me, or made my life difficult in any way.

I'm not aware of any major religion that's more cool with atheism, barring perhaps Buddhism, but that's just a distant cousin.

I'm not aware of any major religion that's more cool with atheism, barring perhaps Buddhism, but that's just a distant cousin.

Does Taoism or Confucianism work, if either count as religions?

I suppose they do, but even if I write a Cultivation novel, I'm no expert on either!

As far as I'm aware, all candidates for President at least present as religious, even if in practise they're agnostic or atheist. I don't know if it's viable to run as an openly atheist candidate, but I suspect not.

Did Bernie bother at all? Wasn't my impression.

I don't remember him speaking about it, but that's not the same as being an overt atheist.

In this case, he needs to convince the majority Christian Republican voter base that despite being born a Hindu, he has a relatively palatable theology.

I think he would be in a lot more trouble on this issue if Trump wasn’t such a front runner. Right now there is a significant part of the GOP that would really prefer not Trump but will vote for him. I think this especially includes the big-money backers (Musks/Griffin) and probably mosts of the conservative PMC (I guess like me). Since Desantis has flatlined there is a significant look at whenever gets momentum.

If Trump got a heart attack tomorrow I think this would be a much bigger issue.