This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
When the least corrupt interpretation plausible is that Vice President's crackhead son accepted six or seven figure payments or no-show jobs to intentionally create the appearance of a corrupt bribe scheme in a country where the Vice President was leveraging American spending to have prosecutors removed, this is still a huge scandal by any reasonable interpretation.
I know this is a waste of time, but:
And what, Hunter is just so earnest that he failed to notice that his employment was based on creating the appearance of the ability to influence the highest level of American politics? I said the least corrupt plausible interpretation, which doesn't imply willingness to accept an utterly ridiculous level of obliviousness to the implications of accepting payments from a corrupt company in Eastern Europe.
No, I did not say he doesn’t notice. I actually said the exact opposite in #2 above.
The point is that those who think that there must have been a bribe, because why else would Burisma want an "unqualified" person on their board, are being very naive.
This wasn’t just any board. It was of a company under investigation for corruption. It wasn’t some trinket maker. They needed a very specific thing - a person able to give them political protection.
This wasn’t even say a Theranos looking to add a name to get investors to look at their investment pitch and renting legitimacy. It was a firm looking specifically to not have their assets seized and go to jail.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It also ignores the fact that Hunter at minimum delivered on the access to his dad. And his dad arranged a call with the company using an anonymous email. Mr. Peters has a lot of explaining to do.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Being cynically blunt, isn't it true that being related to/the mistress of powerful people both gives you the opportunity to do favours, and encourages people to be nice to you so that you can do favours for them?
I'm reading a lot of biographies of figures in the Tudor courts recently, and it's a recurring theme: people using connections to old school friends, neighbours, distant relations and former employers/servants to send what are practically begging letters, often accompanied by a present, to ask for "so I hear that this job is going now... any chance of considering me/my son/my useless brother that the family needs to get a soft job for?"
I don't think the Ukrainians are unique in making that kind of assumption; I know if I heard that So-and-so's cousin got a nice quango job, or a former top civil servant has moved to work for private industry in the field they formerly oversaw, I'd be making the same kind of assumptions in my own country 😁
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It also seems utter bullshit. This dumb crack addled son was able to pull a fast one on both his father and hardened Eastern European oligarchs? Come on.
Hunter didn't pull a fast one on Joe. Joe is familiar enough with politics to know that Hunter was selling access to him, and happily continued to meet with Hunter's "clients" in order to facilitate Hunter's scheme. On Joe's part this is sleazy, but it is neither unusual nor illegal - selling access to politicians is what professional lobbyists do for a living, and meeting with clients of a lobbyist who donates to your campaign/hires your relative/might hire you after you leave office is SOP for DC swamp creatures. On Hunter's part it is a FARA violation and, it seems, tax evasion. (But FARA is almost certainly unconstitutional).
If you believe the official story (that Burisma hired Hunter as an "OK name" to make them look more respectable for a possible future US floatation) then no fast one was pulled - having Hunter on the board got them the access they were paying for. If Hunter did pull a fast one on Burisma then this would not be surprising - lobbyists promising influence but only providing access is an extremely common scam.
FWIW, if someone told me they could buy me the VP of the US for a mere 5 million USD, I would consider the offer too-good-to-be-true.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link