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Culture War Roundup for the week of September 25, 2023

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Some of the people replying here seem completely out of touch with the right wing. I have no idea where they are getting some of these ideas.

The right doesn't like the war in Ukraine because they don't feel like it serves the vital national security interests of The United States. They suspect that it is a handout to the defense industry. As far as why they don't support this when they did support the war in Iraq/etc.: they talk pretty extensively about how the Cheneys lied us into this war, and how Ruper Murdoch (and fox news) helped. They feel betrayed by this.

They talk about it all the time.

Tucker Carlson, who was previously one of the (if not the) most popular host on cable news talked about this extensively.

I don't think it's complicated.

I am not on the left, so can't comment on why they seem to support it so strongly. My suspicion is that 4 years martingaling[1] the claims about Russian interference in our elections have built Russia and Putin into something resembling a Marvel comic villain and/or the nazis.

[1]Martingale betting strategy is just that every time you lose, you double down. Eventually you win and you win big. This applies to compulsive lying in: every time you get caught in a lie, you just double down and make the claims even more fantastic. Conspiracy theorists do this. It's basically how you get qanon.

I am not on the left, so can't comment on why they seem to support it so strongly. My suspicion is that 4 years martingaling[1] the claims about Russian interference in our elections have built Russia and Putin into something resembling a Marvel comic villain and/or the nazis.

Most charitable themotte.org explanation ever! It can't be that people on the left genuinely don't agree with the idea of a war to annex territory or conquer another sovereign nation, it must be that they have a childish and wrong view of Russia.

It can't be that people on the left genuinely don't agree with the idea of a war to annex territory or conquer another sovereign nation

It actually can't be, because they observably didn't give a shit about any of this during the Obama years! This was unironically one of the things that disillusioned me a lot about the left at the time. Where was this principled objection when Libya was destroyed? While you could claim that the Libyan intervention wasn't technically a war to conquer or annex the country, that still leaves the left in the unfortunate position of supporting the bombing of a nation until it regresses to the point of having open air slave markets.

It actually can't be, because they observably didn't give a shit about any of this during the Obama years!

I didn't say the left were avid geopolitics followers. I just said they didn't agree that nations could invade others without damn good reason.

While you could claim that the Libyan intervention wasn't technically a war to conquer or annex the country, that still leaves the left in the unfortunate position of supporting the bombing of a nation until it regresses to the point of having open air slave markets.

My understanding of the Libyan intervention was that Gaddafi was attacking civilians, which is very much Not Okay under the morality and rules of war that have developed for a century now. If you want to claim the left was duped, that's one thing, but I think they would 100% agree that you can invade a nation if it is doing something like that.

Then, of course, there is the question of putting US personnel on the ground to handle post-intervention Libya, something people would probably be wary of given how long the US had been in the Middle East by that point.

I just said they didn't agree that nations could invade others without damn good reason.

Except they greenlit the Saudi invasion of Yemen too. My point is that they don't actually give a shit about nations invading others and are motivated by more local concerns, because otherwise their actions don't make sense. They aren't insisting that we invade China over their actions in Xinjiang, they aren't even proposing military action against France due to their active maintenance of a colonial empire in Africa (this includes multiple military interventions!). One of the reasons I became disillusioned with the left was their sudden reversal on the forever wars and overseas adventurism once Obama took power.

My understanding of the Libyan intervention was that Gaddafi was attacking civilians, which is very much Not Okay under the morality and rules of war that have developed for a century now.

And what does Libya look like now? I'm not going to say that Gaddafi was a saint, but I feel very confident in saying that he was better than the open air slave markets and violent unrest that is still plaguing the region. Military intervention in Libya was a terrible idea and made the world a worse place, and I steadfastly disagree that something being "not okay" is enough to justify an invasion, especially when we can see the ruinous outcomes that actually resulted in the real world.

Except they greenlit the Saudi invasion of Yemen too.

???

What's the source on the broad left doing that?

They aren't insisting that we invade China over their actions in Xinjiang, they aren't even proposing military action against France due to their active maintenance of a colonial empire in Africa (this includes multiple military interventions!).

Xianjing may be a just cause, but a just cause doesn't compel people to go to war. War with China would have severe second-order effects and US or US + Allies victory isn't guaranteed either. Also, what is this French empire you're talking about?

And what does Libya look like now? I'm not going to say that Gaddafi was a saint, but I feel very confident in saying that he was better than the open air slave markets and violent unrest that is still plaguing the region.

That's a separate criticism. Failure to consider "and then what?" isn't the same as having a Marvel-esque view of heroes and villains as the original comment implied.

What's the source on the broad left doing that?

https://www.cfr.org/blog/obamas-war-choice-supporting-saudi-led-air-war-yemen

I haven't seen the left disavowing Barack Obama, and I treat them like adults who are responsible for the choices they make. The left wanted Obama, Obama supported a ten-fold increase in the number of drone strikes and greenlit support for the war in Yemen. If Obama has been repudiated by the broader left since then, I'll retract my claim - but this seems like the sort of thing I would have noticed.

Xianjing may be a just cause, but a just cause doesn't compel people to go to war. War with China would have severe second-order effects and US or US + Allies victory isn't guaranteed either.

It is my contention that the exact same principles apply to Ukraine - it might suck for the Ukrainians, but that just cause doesn't compel people to go to war. Furthermore, this war is going to have severe second-order effects to boot, and it isn't like the US victory is guaranteed either. Hell, from where I'm sitting, it looks like Ukraine is actually losing the conflict right now.

Also, what is this French empire you're talking about?

I am indeed talking about Françafrique. I highly recommend that you learn a bit about it - there are a lot of interesting stories coming out of that part of the world these days.

That's a separate criticism. Failure to consider "and then what?" isn't the same as having a Marvel-esque view of heroes and villains as the original comment implied.

Even if it isn't an exact match, failure to consider "and then what?" is absolutely a sign of an underdeveloped and immature view of the world. "They don't view the world as a Marvel movie with heroes and villains, they just view it as a small child does, with no understanding of the fact that actions have consequences" is not exactly an amazing defence!

I haven't seen the left disavowing Barack Obama, and I treat them like adults who are responsible for the choices they make. The left wanted Obama, Obama supported a ten-fold increase in the number of drone strikes and greenlit support for the war in Yemen.

Hold on just one second. That's not the correct comparison. You would not use the events of 2014 to judge whether the left supported him for it in 2012. You would need to point to his foreign policy statements in the 2012 election or even the 2008 election.

It is my contention that the exact same principles apply to Ukraine - it might suck for the Ukrainians, but that just cause doesn't compel people to go to war. Furthermore, this war is going to have severe second-order effects to boot, and it isn't like the US victory is guaranteed either. Hell, from where I'm sitting, it looks like Ukraine is actually losing the conflict right now.

Except the US isn't at war with Russia. We're donating equipment and training Ukranians. So I don't see what your point is. In fact, the vast majority of Americans don't support US forces acting militarily in Ukraine at all.

I am indeed talking about Françafrique. I highly recommend that you learn a bit about it - there are a lot of interesting stories coming out of that part of the world these days.

I am indeed ignorant of Francafrique. I suspect the broader "left" even moreso. Ignorance isn't hypocrisy.

Even if it isn't an exact match, failure to consider "and then what?" is absolutely a sign of an underdeveloped and immature view of the world. "They don't view the world as a Marvel movie with heroes and villains, they just view it as a small child does, with no understanding of the fact that actions have consequences" is not exactly an amazing defence!

It is, nonetheless, a defense. If you're going to criticize someone, you should at least be correct in what you're criticizing them for.

Hey, terribly sorry - I actually went on a short holiday after you left this and the previous comment (I had a great time disconnected from the internet, for what it's worth). I'm more than happy to continue the conversation, but I find that reappearing a week later and continuing a talk in a dead thread is a bit passé, so I'd just like to ask if you're interested in continuing first.