site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

In the wake of the House of Representatives passing a Continuing Resolution maintaining current funding levels a group of Republicans, led by Matt Gaetz (R-FL), have filed a motion to vacate against Kevin McCarthy (R-CA). This is a motion that, if passed, would remove McCarthy as Chair of the House of Representatives after only nine months on the job. The reporting I'm seeing on Twitter says Democrats are united in supporting the motion, which means only three Republicans would need to join Gaetz for the motion to pass. I believe this would also be the first time in US history the House will have removed a Speaker with a motion to vacate.

What happens after that is anyone's guess. In a literal sense we move back to where we were this January and do another election for Speaker. Presumably Democrats are going to nominate and vote for Hakeem Jeffries (D-NY) as they did then. It's not clear who on the Republican side would be a replacement for McCarthy. He still enjoys the support of a strong majority of Republicans, but the Republican majority is so small he needs basically everyone. His getting elected Speaker again would almost certainly need someone who voted to vacate to vote for him to Speaker. I'm skeptical there are promises McCarthy could make to the Republicans voting to oust him that could convince them to support him again. On the other hand I'm not aware of any consensus about who Republicans could be convinced to support except McCarthy. By far the funniest outcome, I think, would be the Republicans who voted to oust McCarthy abstaining in the Speaker vote, letting the Democrats elect Jeffries Speaker.

Vote on the motion is supposed to be held this morning though the House is currently debating other bills. You can watch the House Session on C-SPAN. Will update this post as the news develops.

ETA:

By a vote of 216-210-0 Kevin McCarthy becomes the first Speaker of the United States House of Representatives removed by a motion to vacate.

Vote breakdown by party (based on the vote on the motion to table, C-SPAN roll call doesn't break down by party):

AyesNaysNV
Republicans82103
Democrats20804

As expected McCarthy retains the support of the vast majority of his own Conference. I think the rule is the House can't do business without a Speaker so I imagine we go directly into elections for Speaker of the House now. Given the multiple days it took to elect McCarthy before I am not confident about any particular path forward from here.

ETA2:

Am hearing online that the Speaker pro tempore (selected by McCarthy when he became Speaker) may be able to function as Speaker indefinitely. They may not have to have an election for Speaker on any particular time table.

What a tremendous backstab by the Democrats, right? McCarthy avoids the shut down only to get ousted by Dems helping out his internal enemies. I'm flabbergasted at the choice of "betray" by the Dems. It makes absolutely clear to any future R speaker with problems on his Right to never ever under any circumstances compromise with the Dems.

What do you mean? The Democrats helped the Republicans keep the government funded, which is what the majority of the GOP wanted. This is completely separate from an agreement for the Democrats to support a Speaker from the opposite party. McCarthy, like Boehner before him, would certainly never expect that without specific negotiations (which he's said he won't do, at least so far) and no minority party would grant it without significant concessions.

Shutting down the government is bad (according to Dem orthodoxy). McCarthy acted, against the Freedom Caucus jackrabbits working on making themselves ungovernable, to avoid the government shutdown. While I don't think he did so for reasons or in a way that represents a compromise with Democrats, he did act to do so. Democrats should reward that action by keeping him around. By not doing so, they make obvious to the next R Speaker that they should not act to keep the government open.

Shutting down the government is bad (according to Dem orthodoxy)

Shutting down the government is bad according to both parties. "Having a functional government" isn't some kind of concession a generous Speaker can make to the Democrats, it's literally just the majority party's job and was obviously what McCarthy and the majority of the GOP caucus repeatedly said they wanted. They couldn't achieve that, despite all 12 appropriations being fully endorsed by both Republicans and Democrats in the Appropriations Committee, specifically because of rebellion from other Republicans, so Democrats saved them and gave them the votes they needed to pass a CR.

They did this despite the fact that McCarthy had already betrayed them on the agreement he made during the debt ceiling negotiation to keep funding at certain levels, and also broke his public commitment not to launch an impeachment inquiry without a floor vote. Despite all this they still reached across the aisle and helped him anyway, only for him to hold a press conference the very next day blaming them for holding up the spending deal.

Given that he did nothing for them, repeatedly reneged on prior commitments, and even accused them of being the root problem after admitting repeatedly it was the Freedom Caucus, it is a bit rich to accuse them of a tremendous backstab against him.

Forgive me if my tone sounds peeved, I'm just somewhat exhausted listening to friends and family members explain to me how somehow the Democrats are at fault here after one of the more embarassing internal party performances ever seen. The GOP's problem right now is intraparty cohesion and it is simply never going to fix that by blaming squabbles on the other party.