naraburns nihil supernum
7mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
How would Zionists behave if they were in the Palestinian position?
This is a key question for determining the moral severity of the terrorist attacks we saw this weekend. A common criticism of Hamas is that they engage in terrorism against civilians whereas their morally enlightened (ostensibly) Israeli cousins only attack military targets. But I think this ignores the fact that Israel has the luxury of successfully hitting military targets. Israel can kill just as many civilians as Hamas by targeting military sites, while also killing relevant military leaders and defending against unwanted criticism. Yet at the end of the day, the same if not more civilians are killed, and the same terror is instilled in the enemy’s civilian population. Regarding an Israeli missile attack in May which killed ten civilians, Amnesty writes:
They were launched into densely populated urban areas at 2am when families were sleeping at home, which suggests that those who planned and authorized the attacks anticipated – and likely disregarded – the disproportionate harm to civilians. Intentionally launching disproportionate attacks, a pattern Amnesty International has documented in previous Israeli operations, is a war crime.
The idea that it is morally acceptable to kill civilians when you also kill military targets at the same time is often brought up when American bombings in Japan during WWII are discussed. However, I’m not convinced that there is a clear moral difference between Hamas actions and, say, the firebombing of Tokyo, where as many as 100k were killed, the vast majority being civilians.
Back to the question at hand, we know that Zionists had no issue bombing embassies and killing non-combatants in order to colonize the land of what is now called Israel. In the 40s, they notably bombed a British embassy, and in the 50s the Israeli government pressured Britain and Italy not to investigate the bombing. Recently, an Israeli historian has claimed that Zionists were responsible for the bombings targeting the Jews of Baghdad in order to pressure Jews to migrate and settle Israel. So, back when Israel’s position was more similar to Palestine, they did in fact engage in terrorist activity. If Israeli militants would behave as Hamas militants were they in that position, then the immorality of Hamas conduct is greatly diminished in severity.
This is a key question for determining the moral severity of the terrorist attacks
No, it isn't. Intentionally targeting civilians is morally wrong. You don’t get a free pass to murder Pol Pot's children just because he has done similar things in the past.
I think this "free pass" rhetoric conceals the role of the speaker, and the authorities that the speaker seeks to persuade to act, in war crime discourse. It should be one matter whether in our beliefs, the murderer of Pol Pot's children ought to be assigned the same metaphysical quality of evil or expectation of supernatural punishment as Pol Pot; it's quite another matter whether you (@Gdanning) and the government that represents you get to "withhold the free pass" (by slapping around the murderer, probably also reaping some totally coincidental benefits in the process) if previously you chose to grant the free pass to Pol Pot.
quite another matter whether you (@Gdanning) and the government that represents you get to "withhold the free pass" (by slapping around the murderer,
You seem to be referring here to whether consequences are imposed for immoral actions. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether the action is immoral or not. By "free pass", I meant a moral free pass -- because, again that was the subject of OP's claim -- not a practical free pass. People get away with immoral acts all the time. That does not render them any more or less immoral. It used to be perfectly legal to forcibly rape one's wife. Hence, husbands were given a free pass -- they were not "slapped around" by the state, to use your terminology. But that says nothing about the morality of those actions.
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Notes -
How would Zionists behave if they were in the Palestinian position?
This is a key question for determining the moral severity of the terrorist attacks we saw this weekend. A common criticism of Hamas is that they engage in terrorism against civilians whereas their morally enlightened (ostensibly) Israeli cousins only attack military targets. But I think this ignores the fact that Israel has the luxury of successfully hitting military targets. Israel can kill just as many civilians as Hamas by targeting military sites, while also killing relevant military leaders and defending against unwanted criticism. Yet at the end of the day, the same if not more civilians are killed, and the same terror is instilled in the enemy’s civilian population. Regarding an Israeli missile attack in May which killed ten civilians, Amnesty writes:
The idea that it is morally acceptable to kill civilians when you also kill military targets at the same time is often brought up when American bombings in Japan during WWII are discussed. However, I’m not convinced that there is a clear moral difference between Hamas actions and, say, the firebombing of Tokyo, where as many as 100k were killed, the vast majority being civilians.
Back to the question at hand, we know that Zionists had no issue bombing embassies and killing non-combatants in order to colonize the land of what is now called Israel. In the 40s, they notably bombed a British embassy, and in the 50s the Israeli government pressured Britain and Italy not to investigate the bombing. Recently, an Israeli historian has claimed that Zionists were responsible for the bombings targeting the Jews of Baghdad in order to pressure Jews to migrate and settle Israel. So, back when Israel’s position was more similar to Palestine, they did in fact engage in terrorist activity. If Israeli militants would behave as Hamas militants were they in that position, then the immorality of Hamas conduct is greatly diminished in severity.
No, it isn't. Intentionally targeting civilians is morally wrong. You don’t get a free pass to murder Pol Pot's children just because he has done similar things in the past.
I think this "free pass" rhetoric conceals the role of the speaker, and the authorities that the speaker seeks to persuade to act, in war crime discourse. It should be one matter whether in our beliefs, the murderer of Pol Pot's children ought to be assigned the same metaphysical quality of evil or expectation of supernatural punishment as Pol Pot; it's quite another matter whether you (@Gdanning) and the government that represents you get to "withhold the free pass" (by slapping around the murderer, probably also reaping some totally coincidental benefits in the process) if previously you chose to grant the free pass to Pol Pot.
You seem to be referring here to whether consequences are imposed for immoral actions. But that is not the issue. The issue is whether the action is immoral or not. By "free pass", I meant a moral free pass -- because, again that was the subject of OP's claim -- not a practical free pass. People get away with immoral acts all the time. That does not render them any more or less immoral. It used to be perfectly legal to forcibly rape one's wife. Hence, husbands were given a free pass -- they were not "slapped around" by the state, to use your terminology. But that says nothing about the morality of those actions.
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