naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
28855 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I've seen a few people wonder why some people support Palestine in this conflict. While videos like this one (which predates the current conflict) are undoubtedly propaganda, they do offer a window into the worldview of a person who supports Palestine.
Wikipedia claims that 40% of male Palestinians have spent some time in an Israeli prison. I hear about Israel demolishing 55,000 Palestinian structures as of 2022. I remember that Gaza had been blockaded by Egypt and Israel since 2005, despite Israel supposedly backing out of Gaza.
Even if every example of Israelis killing Palestinian civilians was collateral damage or accident, even if we assume that the cameras showing Israeli brutality always start rolling at the perfect moment to make it look like unnecessary brutality on their part, it's obvious to me that Palestine won't be able to grow under its current conditions of occupation. If the United States supports Israel, then Israel will prevail and Palestine will lose little by little every year. It will be a slow motion catastrophe, and there is nothing Palestine can do about it.
Is national, regional and global stability worth anything to the Palestinian people under such conditions? No wonder people are posting music videos in this thread of Palestinians with pipe dreams of Russia becoming a global super power again, and supporting Palestine to spite the United States. They're fucked, and I think there's something noble in fighting until you're wiped from the Earth by your enemy. Even if history remembers you as a monster, they will remember you.
I'm honestly a little conflicted about who I should support.
I don't understand how you can watch some of the videos that came out the last couple days and still feel this way. Raping someone to death and using their body as a trophy and then proudly releasing the video... makes it kind of an easy choice.
What confuses me; Is the hate I got for not putting certain political slogans in my twitter a few years ago... Where's all that outrage for actual atrocities against women? Why no feminist marches? Didn't people in Canada get their bank accounts frozen for donating to truckers honking loudly? Why is that apparatus not being applied here?
Perhaps because they were alive before last Saturday? It is not for nothing that people who actually spend serious attention on this conflict (and don't have certain affinity for one side) usually end up lament the evil done by both sides and shake their heads in despair.
The Arabs could have had another Arab state, but they declined the UN partition agreement and attacked Israel as soon as she was born - Israel won that war and expanded her territory. If Ukraine ousts Russia and takes a bit of Russian territory to boot would we blame them? The palestinians rejected a Clinton deal for a two state solution in 2000...they elected Hamas as soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza...I think the horrors of war are what we see from Israel, but the Palestinians commit actual terrorism.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I've seen a few people wonder why some people support Palestine in this conflict. While videos like this one (which predates the current conflict) are undoubtedly propaganda, they do offer a window into the worldview of a person who supports Palestine.
I'm honestly a little conflicted about who I should support. I condemn the killing of civilians by Hamas last weekend, but then I see United Nations OCHA data like this, where it says that 3,208 Palestinian civilians have died from 2008 to 2020 (compared to 177 Israeli civilians over the same period), mostly from air-launched explosions. I see people talking about supporting "the Jewish state’s justified but often brutal response", which so far includes blowing up a Palestinian house full of civilians with no warning, killing those inside, blowing up marketplaces and mosques, and attacking the Jabalia refugee camp.
Wikipedia claims that 40% of male Palestinians have spent some time in an Israeli prison. I hear about Israel demolishing 55,000 Palestinian structures as of 2022. I remember that Gaza had been blockaded by Egypt and Israel since 2005, despite Israel supposedly backing out of Gaza.
Even if every example of Israelis killing Palestinian civilians was collateral damage or accident, even if we assume that the cameras showing Israeli brutality always start rolling at the perfect moment to make it look like unnecessary brutality on their part, it's obvious to me that Palestine won't be able to grow under its current conditions of occupation. If the United States supports Israel, then Israel will prevail and Palestine will lose little by little every year. It will be a slow motion catastrophe, and there is nothing Palestine can do about it.
Is national, regional and global stability worth anything to the Palestinian people under such conditions? No wonder people are posting music videos in this thread of Palestinians with pipe dreams of Russia becoming a global super power again, and supporting Palestine to spite the United States. They're fucked, and I think there's something noble in fighting until you're wiped from the Earth by your enemy. Even if history remembers you as a monster, they will remember you.
I don't understand how you can watch some of the videos that came out the last couple days and still feel this way. Raping someone to death and using their body as a trophy and then proudly releasing the video... makes it kind of an easy choice.
What confuses me; Is the hate I got for not putting certain political slogans in my twitter a few years ago... Where's all that outrage for actual atrocities against women? Why no feminist marches? Didn't people in Canada get their bank accounts frozen for donating to truckers honking loudly? Why is that apparatus not being applied here?
Perhaps because they were alive before last Saturday? It is not for nothing that people who actually spend serious attention on this conflict (and don't have certain affinity for one side) usually end up lament the evil done by both sides and shake their heads in despair.
The Arabs could have had another Arab state, but they declined the UN partition agreement and attacked Israel as soon as she was born - Israel won that war and expanded her territory. If Ukraine ousts Russia and takes a bit of Russian territory to boot would we blame them? The palestinians rejected a Clinton deal for a two state solution in 2000...they elected Hamas as soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza...I think the horrors of war are what we see from Israel, but the Palestinians commit actual terrorism.
Such a miraculous thing, states being "born". With totally no other context behind the event. Land of virgin births indeed.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link