naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
As far as I know, Darwin isn't currently banned, and having spent years arguing with him, I'm pretty sure the above is his alt.
I did too, and playing @guesswho ? Is a waste of our time. This proxy accusation is ludicrous, if you want to criticize him, link him.
The real darwin was not charitable, but neither was he treated with appropriate charity by the sub. In the end he was confronted with every perceived wrong thing he ever said wherever he went, swarmed by a mob demanding he yield. He never gave an inch, but he was more than capable of making good arguments (although obviously he made some bad ones too) .
They were often arguments we could not make and had not seen before, at least a few notches above standard reddit dross. Sometimes he would chew up a careless right-winger who got ahead of himself, that’s why they hated him imo. Granted, he would not be particularly nice about it, like a ymeskout, SSCreader, Soriek or gdanning might be. But perhaps the greater abrasiveness was better for our epistemic hygiene. People should fear mild disembowelment for saying something stupid.
Don’t ask me to side with a mob against a contrarian who won’t admit he’s wrong. Although he may have been wrong – he was most likely wrong – a mob forces the issue through social pressure and the weight of numbers (and ultimately in this case, mod force) , and that is not legitimate.
That's the best part - he was the one forcing the issues. The thing about the mod force is cmpletely backwards, for a long time, they were explicitly protecting him, letting him get away with stuff that got others banned. Even that wouldn't make so many people turn against him, if he had enough grace to concede when he was wrong.
I'm not asking you to side with the mob against a contrarian, I'm asking you to provide actual evidence for your theory that people hated him because he occasionally won a spat with a counter-progressive, rather than because he refused to engage in an honest manner.
Obviously I have a different perspective on what was usually happening. Anyone arguing in a hostile environment will appear more antagonistic than his best-behaved critics. Given his ideological distance to the sub, he was relatively polite. His worse critics should have been more charitable.
As to his refusal to admit he was wrong, though I accused him of bad faith for that myself once or twice, I now think it’s his business. I don’t judge him for lacking the grace to do what most of us almost never do, even when we are not facing the threats, mockery and vociferous demands of hostile ideological opponents.
It's a bit weird then, that people don't seem to have issues with any of the other progressives currently posting here. Even the ones that flamed out and left in a huff never got sufjj a bad reputation.
I don’t judge him for lacking the grace to do what most of us almost never do
That's your choice, but it seems perfectly normal that other people will choose otherwise, particularly when they disagree that this is something most people almost never do. It is very weird then to go on psychoanalytical investigations, trying to figure out what the 'real' reason for people disliking him is.
Have you argued for a position with very little support – honest inquiry, not a gotcha. I have, sometimes in here, and it’s an interesting dynamic. At first everything’s cool, but if you persist, the rudest part of the mob will accuse you of ignorance and stupidity, while the nicest will say you are obstinate and have ‘no interest in discussion’ . They progressively embolden each other and get annoyed by your refusal to admit “the obvious” until the knives really come out and you are declared a “troll”, a liar who can’t possibly believe anything so widely disbelieved. It seemed to me in those cases I was not wrong, they were.
But if I was wrong, then I guess it’s very difficult to recognize being wrong, and I have to absolve darwin. And if I was right, well then the mob knows nothing and I have to absolve darwin.
Have you argued for a position with very little support – honest inquiry, not a gotcha.
My "Elon Musk is not a genius, and his flagship companies are probably going to crash and burn soonish" take seems to be unpopular going by the down votes, I was challenged to two bets as a result of it, but it didn't seem to generate a dogpile. Sometime soon after moving from reddit, I also defended the Hassidim and the way they apparently extract resources from the American welfare system.
A take generated massive blowback was "surrogacy, and all forms transhumanism are evil". There were a few people backing me on it, so maybe you'll say it doesn't count, but even now Darwin is not the only progressive, and he was even less alone back on the day.
I have, sometimes in here, and it’s an interesting dynamic. At first everything’s cool, but if you persist, the rudest part of the mob will accuse you of ignorance and stupidity, while the nicest will say you are obstinate and have ‘no interest in discussion’ .
And how were you behaving in these cases? I'm pretty familiar with your style, it's pretty entertaining, so I tend to stop scrolling when your name pops up in the feed. But the truth is you're pretty antagonistic, so I don't understand why you're surpsied at the reaction, or why you'd blame it on mob dynamics.
But if I was wrong, then I guess it’s very difficult to recognize being wrong, and I have to absolve darwin
It's good to have the same standard for others as you do for yourself, but other people might not have that much of an issue admitting they're wrong.
The second issue is that there are levels of admitting you're wrong. When you don't have so much pride invested in something you might say "oops, looks like I got carried away there" or something, or if you have some humiliry, you could do one of those "things I was wrong about" posts ymeshkout does every once in a while.
But by far the most common approach is to back off, and be a bit more cautious in the future, and Darwin never cleared that bar. He would jump in with a bombastic claim, it would turn out he cannot back in literally any way, he would indeed back off, and then just do the same thing again in the future. People would have a lot more sympathy for him, if he wasn't acting like GPT prompted to defend progressivism no matter what.
I’m sorry, my ego got the better of me, I can’t let the accusation stand that the mob was always right and it ‘s just me being an asshole.
So here. I make an argument against the OP ,who presents a popular position. My comment is largely upvoted. Just two comments down, I get this sort of shit:
Are you actually interested in having a conversation and understanding what the other side is trying to claim, or do you want to try and score sick burns instead?
And
Do you really not believe this? How many women do you know?
Further down in a different branch:
I don't have sources on hand and am not putting together stuff for some clown who can't read
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Notes -
I did too, and playing @guesswho ? Is a waste of our time. This proxy accusation is ludicrous, if you want to criticize him, link him.
The real darwin was not charitable, but neither was he treated with appropriate charity by the sub. In the end he was confronted with every perceived wrong thing he ever said wherever he went, swarmed by a mob demanding he yield. He never gave an inch, but he was more than capable of making good arguments (although obviously he made some bad ones too) .
They were often arguments we could not make and had not seen before, at least a few notches above standard reddit dross. Sometimes he would chew up a careless right-winger who got ahead of himself, that’s why they hated him imo. Granted, he would not be particularly nice about it, like a ymeskout, SSCreader, Soriek or gdanning might be. But perhaps the greater abrasiveness was better for our epistemic hygiene. People should fear mild disembowelment for saying something stupid.
Really? You don't think "never giving an inch" even when confronted with "every wrong he ever said" might have more to do with it?
Don’t ask me to side with a mob against a contrarian who won’t admit he’s wrong. Although he may have been wrong – he was most likely wrong – a mob forces the issue through social pressure and the weight of numbers (and ultimately in this case, mod force) , and that is not legitimate.
That's the best part - he was the one forcing the issues. The thing about the mod force is cmpletely backwards, for a long time, they were explicitly protecting him, letting him get away with stuff that got others banned. Even that wouldn't make so many people turn against him, if he had enough grace to concede when he was wrong.
I'm not asking you to side with the mob against a contrarian, I'm asking you to provide actual evidence for your theory that people hated him because he occasionally won a spat with a counter-progressive, rather than because he refused to engage in an honest manner.
Obviously I have a different perspective on what was usually happening. Anyone arguing in a hostile environment will appear more antagonistic than his best-behaved critics. Given his ideological distance to the sub, he was relatively polite. His worse critics should have been more charitable.
As to his refusal to admit he was wrong, though I accused him of bad faith for that myself once or twice, I now think it’s his business. I don’t judge him for lacking the grace to do what most of us almost never do, even when we are not facing the threats, mockery and vociferous demands of hostile ideological opponents.
It's a bit weird then, that people don't seem to have issues with any of the other progressives currently posting here. Even the ones that flamed out and left in a huff never got sufjj a bad reputation.
That's your choice, but it seems perfectly normal that other people will choose otherwise, particularly when they disagree that this is something most people almost never do. It is very weird then to go on psychoanalytical investigations, trying to figure out what the 'real' reason for people disliking him is.
Have you argued for a position with very little support – honest inquiry, not a gotcha. I have, sometimes in here, and it’s an interesting dynamic. At first everything’s cool, but if you persist, the rudest part of the mob will accuse you of ignorance and stupidity, while the nicest will say you are obstinate and have ‘no interest in discussion’ . They progressively embolden each other and get annoyed by your refusal to admit “the obvious” until the knives really come out and you are declared a “troll”, a liar who can’t possibly believe anything so widely disbelieved. It seemed to me in those cases I was not wrong, they were.
But if I was wrong, then I guess it’s very difficult to recognize being wrong, and I have to absolve darwin. And if I was right, well then the mob knows nothing and I have to absolve darwin.
My "Elon Musk is not a genius, and his flagship companies are probably going to crash and burn soonish" take seems to be unpopular going by the down votes, I was challenged to two bets as a result of it, but it didn't seem to generate a dogpile. Sometime soon after moving from reddit, I also defended the Hassidim and the way they apparently extract resources from the American welfare system.
A take generated massive blowback was "surrogacy, and all forms transhumanism are evil". There were a few people backing me on it, so maybe you'll say it doesn't count, but even now Darwin is not the only progressive, and he was even less alone back on the day.
And how were you behaving in these cases? I'm pretty familiar with your style, it's pretty entertaining, so I tend to stop scrolling when your name pops up in the feed. But the truth is you're pretty antagonistic, so I don't understand why you're surpsied at the reaction, or why you'd blame it on mob dynamics.
It's good to have the same standard for others as you do for yourself, but other people might not have that much of an issue admitting they're wrong.
The second issue is that there are levels of admitting you're wrong. When you don't have so much pride invested in something you might say "oops, looks like I got carried away there" or something, or if you have some humiliry, you could do one of those "things I was wrong about" posts ymeshkout does every once in a while.
But by far the most common approach is to back off, and be a bit more cautious in the future, and Darwin never cleared that bar. He would jump in with a bombastic claim, it would turn out he cannot back in literally any way, he would indeed back off, and then just do the same thing again in the future. People would have a lot more sympathy for him, if he wasn't acting like GPT prompted to defend progressivism no matter what.
I’m sorry, my ego got the better of me, I can’t let the accusation stand that the mob was always right and it ‘s just me being an asshole.
So here. I make an argument against the OP ,who presents a popular position. My comment is largely upvoted. Just two comments down, I get this sort of shit:
And
Further down in a different branch:
(That’s me.)
I don’t think I was antagonistic, no.
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