site banner
ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   4842 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 18, 2022

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Steelman: Martha's Vineyard is a vacation resort and doesn't have the infrastructure to handle this, they'll be taken to the city and helped there (DeSantis is an asshole for using people for politics).

Retort: Border Towns are poorer than MV and don't have the resources either.

Steelman: [Not sure what goes here to be honest.]

The final steelman is that border towns do have the infrastructure (which is not the same as resources). They have local state and nonstate entities which deal with this all the time. Similarly, SF is richer than

Detroit, but which is better equipped to deal with 8 inches of snow?

According to Wikipedia Martha's Vineyard has the infra to handle 85,000 visitors (the difference between MV's year round population of 16k and their summer population of 100k). Quickly browsing travelocity suggests there are easily places for 50 people to stay in their beach front guest houses. The first few results were "beach house, sleeps 6", "resort condo, sleeps 4", etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha's_Vineyard

I do not recall anyone calling the National Guard when Obama brought in in 400 celebrities and 200 servants: https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-08-04/barack-obama-scales-back-60th-birthday-party-amid-delta-variant-spread

If you believe that the normal MV guests require different "infrastructure" than summer vacationers and that you can't just drop these guys into some beach houses, maybe you can be specific about what infra they need and why you can't?

I assume that recent arrivals need all sorts of services other than a mere roof. And indeed there is whole network of agencies in border areas which provide such services. Are doctors in MV conversant with the health issues common to migrants from Central America? With the symptoms of common diseases in Central America? Are there even medical, educational, etc, staff who are fluent in Spanish in MV? Are there local Spanish-language religious services? Those are just a few things that pop to mind. Are there others? I don't know,and THAT IN ITSELF is an illustration of the issue: Part of the infrastructure is people with the knowledge of what needs these people are likely to have.

I guess deporting people on the theory that maybe they are carrying scary exotic diseases is only racist when non-wealthy people do it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure MV has the resources to hire...1 spanish speaking Texas doctor for 4 days (assuming 30 minutes/exam x 8 hour days x 4 days = 64 exams > 50 people).

I was referring, of course, to treating those diseases, not deporting those who have them.

Anyhow, if MV has to import professionals from TX, doesn’t that sort of imply that they don't have the infrastructure in place?

Look, OP asked for a steelman. The infrastructure issue clearly is a one. That doesn’t mean that DeSantis is a good guy, nor that he is a bad guy. Ditto re people in MV. Ditto re the migrants themselves. But surely you are willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, sending the migrants to MV was not in their best interests?

Anyhow, if MV has to import professionals from TX

I see no evidence they do need to do this because the idea that all 50 of them needed a Spanish language medical exam for exotic foreign diseases is laughable.

But surely you are willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, sending the migrants to MV was not in their best interests?

I defer to the migrants in question, all of whom made a choice to get on the plane to MV.

Note how carefully most news articles hint - but don't explicitly state - that they were forced to. Meanwhile DeSantis quite explicitly states that it was voluntary, they had a packet which explained everything and had a map of MV. (I see no reason to trust their vague hints now given how frequently the media has mislead people about DeSantis in the past.)

And the litany of other services? Are you really arguing that there is NO chance that an area in which migration is a constant featureswill have better infrastructure to deal with migrants than some dinky island 1500 miles from the border?

The news articles very clearly state that they were fooled into going, not that they were coerced. And, as for what they thought was in their best interest, that is irrelevant: the OP was about MV residents, and their views. If they are correct that the migrants best interests were not served by being sent there, then what is the basis for criticizing them.

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats