This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Maybe examine the source of your anxiety and the assumptions behind them. Tribal feelings are probably natural/ingrained but what the tribe is is cultural. For some reason you learned to associate tribe with skin color/race. If a bunch of Bulgarians moved into your neighborhood and stayed in their circles, cooked and ate Bulgarian food, spoke Bulgarian on the street, etc. would you feel less anxious because they are white? How about Arabs who are white-passing? I guess it isn't exactly about skin color, but level of cultural integration and connectedness to other parts of society as opposed to people living in culturally segregated parallel societies. Or perhaps about the level of education among the different groups. (But if it really is about race, I would say you've become - perhaps unconsciously - racist.)
There's nothing wrong with wishing for a united, high-trust community in your town or city as opposed to splintered ethnic or racial tribes being in conflict with each other. But how would you feel about the future if it consisted of people of various racial and ethnic background living together, regularly interacting and sharing a base culture, attaining similar levels of education etc.?
You could also examine your beliefs about some sharp separation between white and non-white people, which is quite nonsense on a global view (but may be a good simplification in certain times and places, like the US some decades ago when most people were either descended from European immigrants or African slaves). White people are not "the same", the culture and people of the Nordics are quite different from the Mediterraneans, Slavic nations are different from the French or the English. The Greeks are pretty similar to Cypriots and Turks, who are not that dissimilar from people of the Levant and so on all the way. My point with this is two-fold, all whites are not that close to you as you may seem to think (eg I as a Hungarian don't feel more connected to a Spaniard than to a secular Iranian simply based on skin tone) and that non-whites aren't some homogeneous bunch either.
The thing about America's (or Canada's, or the UK's) white population is that it's still mostly Northern European in character. People would (and did) object to Italians too, especially if they were 20% of their country, but nothing like that is the case. Our countries are not faced with floods of Southern Europeans changing the demographics, but instead by non-whites. So I don't see what difference it makes to point out that Sicilians aren't all that similar to Norwegians. I actually kind of dislike Bulgarians and Greeks but it's completely irrelevant to the reality of modern immigration.
That sounds like my university. Hard pass, that place is horrible.
Are you really being intellectually honest?
Assuming you are studying in the West, most of the students are woke. And they are most definitely having a jolly good time being surrounded by people of their own tribe.
It's horrible for you because you are an outsider. Not because that arrangement sucks.
I mean you be honest and tell me which of these are preferable to you;
All of your same race, but woke.
Different races but same beliefs and values as you.
I personally would prefer number 2, but I think OP's worry is that the most realistic choice is between:
A) Something like the current white majority that's partly woke, in which that wokeness is not catastophic, and
B) Different races, partly woke, in which the wokeness leads to ethnic spoils, persecution of whites, and general Brazilification.
It does seem like in Canada in particular there's room for some sort of third option, in which whiteness de facto ends up extending to the "white-adjacent", i.e. northeast Asians, high-caste Indians, and whoever else has the desire and ability to compete in a pseudo-meritocracy. I already see lots of affirmative action programs specifically for black & indigenous people.
Basically it seems plausible that there might be some sort of bifurcation between (whites and skills-based immigrants) vs (refugees and aboriginals).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link