site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

33
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think if you care about the direction of society something you simply have to risk mental unwellness and a certain myopic obsession with politics.

I disagree. Being a functioning human being has to come first. It's nobody's job to drive themselves insane with worry over something they have no control over.

First of all - no, being aware of painful ideas and engaging in politics does not risk psychologically scarring you and making you a "nonfunctioning human being". Thinking about climate change doesn't cause climate anxiety, thinking about AI doesn't cause AI anxiety.

(if you quit your job to study AI full time, or even just to blog like Scott, that ... i mean, if it's "nonfunctioning" by a psychological definition, that definition is wrong).

It's nobody's job to drive themselves insane with worry over something they have no control over.

The extent to which a person can influence events - "control" here is used pejoratively, as if "controlling" events, is both impossible and bad, but counterfactual influence is everywhere. Was it mentally unhealthy for moldbug to write about NRX stuff? Can he not control it? How could he have known billionaires and congressional staff would read his stuff? Plausibly. unhealthy. Was it unhealthy for [john brown](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist%29) to die inciting failed ("impossible") slave revolts? Certainly. What about Jesus? Maybe "mental health" isn't a useful idea.

And - if nobody took 9/10 chance of eventual death expeditions to the frontier, none of us would be alive.

If nobody caused "severe mental anguish" to ponder deep questions, western philosophy wouldn't exist.

Thinking about climate change doesn't cause climate anxiety, thinking about AI doesn't cause AI anxiety.

Myopic obsession might. Also OP and his climate anxious employee aren't (afaik) bloggers with a huge platform.

If nobody caused "severe mental anguish" to ponder deep questions, western philosophy wouldn't exist.

There's a difference between pondering and driving yourself crazy with worry. OP is neither John Brown nor Jesus, and the same goes for his employee taking sick days.

And - if nobody took 9/10 chance of eventual death expeditions to the frontier, none of us would be alive.

Indeed, but that's touching grass, not... whatever OP is doing.

Maybe "mental health" isn't a useful idea.

You haven't really supported this assessment. Care to elaborate?

There's a difference between pondering and driving yourself crazy with worry

Right, but if the problem is real, "driving yourself crazy with worry" isn't enough. You might have to spend the majority of your time worrying about a problem nobody even knows exists. Even worse, most people who do this will pick something stupid - but if nobody did this, then we wouldn't have e.g. yudkowsky

Indeed, but that's touching grass, not... whatever OP is doing.

It's not 'being a functioning human being', though (because most of the people doing it die). "being a functioning human being" or "mentally healthy" is just a way to launder pre-existing judgements behind a facade of socialized morality or common sense, it doesn't actually mean anything or convey anything.