This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This is a misleading unit of measuring death tolls. 9/11's significance was mainly not in the number of dead victims, but the symbolism and terror instilled in a nation, a felling of invincibility evaporating. Imagine the alternative history where they fly into the statue of liberty instead or the WTC but at night and only 300 people die. It would still be a pretty similarly big deal.
I don't think that's true. Part of Osama's point was to inflict a wound on the US like it had never seen, and the US had seen 300 deaths before. If they'd hit the statue of liberty or waited until night it would have sent a similar message, but only to the people in charge - by killing so many civilians he said "you can't protect your people" in a way that everyone understood. Or to put it another way, we could have been cavalierly using 9/11 as a unit of measurement a few years later, instead of 20.
If you referred to something as a 9/11 in mainstream circles in 2010 you would be a pariah, it was considered outrageously bad form. I speak from experience here - my best friend at the time was too online, and in places like 4chan and poe it was regularly joked about (because edge), and he used it like that at the birthday party we were at. He didn't make a joke, he just used it too nonchalantly. Instantly I was told I was too drunk and needed to take my friend home (which just made me laugh, which just made everyone more upset, so it's partly my fault) and for about two years after that any invitation I got came with a request not to invite him. The human toll was necessary for the impact.
Ok but the point is still that the fuss was about the "you can't protect your people" part and that this might happen again and the symbolism of destroying the tallest towers, which also symbolize the US leading the western world or even the globe regarding economic matters etc.
It wasn't particularly about just those 3000 people individually. The smuggled implication in saying "a 9/11 a week" is that somehow there should have been somewhat similar levels of concern each week as there was due to the OG 9/11, and that clearly doesn't follow.
Oh, you mean 9/11 was terrorism, and that's what made it different? If so I agree entirely. Mentally I put "a 9/11 a week" in the same category as the people who liken covid deaths to car accidents and wonder why we still drive cars - usually missing the point.
Sorry, I had a conversation with a youngster last week who actually thought the main point of 9/11 was flying a symbol of modernity into another symbol of modernity and the deaths were incidental, and that's why it upset everyone and covid deaths don't.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link