This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Trump AG prosecute Obama, Biden,Hilary, Fauci etc.. Also people who criticize him. People get violent. Atmosphere of fear, people are afraid that one wrong move will fracture the republic (or try to make that move because it feels virtuous given that your side is right).
Replace generals with Trump loyalists? That doesn't get you all the way there, but it helps. Then you have a choice between an internal military coup to get rid of the Trump loyalists at the top, and maybe they say that it's better to have another term of Trump than to destroy the Republic; they might be right.
You could see how they would think it's reasonable. The first term didn't count because the deep state interfered, and this makes some kind of internal sense, so this would be his first real full term, or maybe the next one, because he will need to use this one to eradicate the deep state.
Ya, I have a hard time seeing any of this happening.
The thing is, for the first term, we were told all this was going to happen anyway. People were online asking about how they could flee to Canada ahead of the jackboots marching in the street to drag gays and minorities off to be tortured in the camps.
What happened, in reality? Pretty much business as usual, apart from Covid. And getting conservative judges on the Supreme Court, which I really never imagined he'd either try or even get done. Congratulations there on a real achievement.
We didn't get the Third World War, the nukes flying, the end of days, crashed economy, torture conversion camp for gays, the Christofascist theocratic regime. So why think that even if he somehow manages to win a second term, this would happen? Too much "wolf! wolf! look there's a wolf!" cried the first time for me to believe all the "no really a wolf this time!" this time round.
We did get the attempt to overthrow democracy. So there's that.
Oh, you mean the setting up of CHOP and CHAZ and people forming little militias that killed the very people they were supposed to be protecting?
Not that, huh?
I was more talking about Trump's actions, but sure, there was that too.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm hardly informed about goings-on over the pond, but isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? Not that democracy is flawless or working overly well, but I'm having a hard time seeing attempts to overthrow it outright in the recent past.
No, I don't think it's an exaggeration. He lost an election and tried very hard to stay in power regardless. That is a central example of an attempt to overthrow democracy in my book.
Hm. Alright. Hearing "overthrow", I expected something more effectual, but I suppose I can see where you're coming from.
More options
Context Copy link
From the Trump side, we did see an attempt to overthrow democracy, and it was successful: the Biden coup.
If 2020’s election season and J6 were indeed a Biden coup, it was portrayed to those in the know as a way to pre-empt a seemingly inevitable Trump coup, complete with Nancy Pelosi’s daughter capturing events for a documentary intended to portray events as a 9/11-style attack.
If it was a Trump attempt at seizing power, it was the most ridiculously convoluted and ineffective plot in political history, with an impromptu army of hundreds of thousands just giving up without firing a shot.
If it was all just a series of bad game theory moves which gave each side's actions the illusion of malfeasance through tribal lenses, it is a tragedy of democracy all around.
You can apply this excuse to the more naive of Trump's supporters, but it can't be applied to Trump himself. The "Biden coup" is not a thing he reacted to, it is a thing he invented out of whole cloth to justify his attempt to stay in power.
I would rank it as possibly the second most convoluted and ineffective plot in political history after the Beer Hall Putsch.
Sounds like the BHP was radically successful in comparison:
By comparison, on J6, the sitting President’s social media accounts were suspended or deleted, and he wasn’t publicly seen in the media for months afterward.
I'm not sure what distinction you're drawing. Trump is also being put on trial and he is also using his prosecution to boost himself. Arguably DeSantis would be leading the primary race right now if Trump had never been indicted.
But that's not what I was referring to anyway. My point was that the Beer Hall Putsch, like Jan 6, was a profoundly incompetent and unrealistic attempt to seize power. But that does not mean that such attempts should be airily dismissed as inconsequential. They signal a clear intent to overturn democracy and a willingness to do so if given the chance later. It's a bright red line and there should be no forgiveness or mercy for those who cross it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link