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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   27548 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 27, 2023

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They had to throw in "often-gendered", didn't they? Guys get doxxed as much, maybe more, than women. If doxxing is wrong - and I think there are very few cases where it is appropriate - it doesn't become even worser if the doxxed person is female/female presenting/non binary/genderfluid/anything not cis male.

it doesn't become even worser if the doxxed person is female/female presenting/non binary/genderfluid/anything not cis male.

Hmm, if we take as granted that doxxing increases the risk of some physical altercation taking place (even if by some tiny percent) and if we take as granted that the average woman is physically weaker than the average man, then I think it is probably true that doxxing poses more of a physical risk to women than men. Not necessarily by much of course as I imagine most doxxing doesn't actually lead to anything like being physically stalked.

I think doxxing Amouranth would probably put her at more risk then doxxing Jacksepticeye for example.

If we take all of those things for granted, then we have to take for granted that trans women do not belong in women's sports / prisons / bathrooms / etc., and we have to wonder why those things are not loudly shouted from the rooftops by NYT reporters.

On the other hand, if we don't take for granted, but check the relevant statistics, and it turns out that women are far less likely to be victims of violent crime, then your argument falls flat on it's face.

less likely to be victims of violent crime, then your argument falls flat on it's face.

of random violent crime yes. But that's not the specific thing we are talking about here. Do you think that a random online woman and a random online man are equally likely to be sought out by a bad actor?

You can't use general crime statistics against a specific scenario. For obvious reasons.

My objection to the point raised was narrow for a reason, I am not commenting on general levels of violence or whether this scenario would be portrayed accurately with trans people et al. So don't read into my point more than is actually there.

If I show that women are less likely to be the victims of non-random violent crime as well, will you concede, or move the goalposts again?

I don't see how the goal posts ever moved. The original claim was that woman are easier to victimize (because they are physically weaker than men), men being more likely to be victims in general does not seem to preclude that.

The original claim was that because women are easier to victimize, they are actually being more victimized, which is why doxxing them is worse. If he actually meant what you're saying, it would be irrelevant to the conversation.

I think it is probably true that doxxing poses more of a physical risk to women than men.

I think this can be read a few ways, I think your reading is something like, therefore the number of women physically assaulted after being doxxed would be higher than the number of men, and you don't think the stats would back that up.

A different reading, would be that a (specific) woman being physically assaulted after being doxxed is in more danger, because they are physically weaker than men.

It is possible this is also not borne out by the stats, but they would be different stats, like, how often do women survive a physically violent attack compared to men.

All of these stats are complicated though, because I doubt the whole of the difference would be because men are just 'randomly' more likely to be victims.

It is possible this is also not borne out by the stats, but they would be different stats, like, how often do women survive a physically violent attack compared to men.

All of these stats are complicated though,

Right, I'm not saying you can't possibly make an argument to that effect, I'm saying that any such argument would be complicated enough that a publication like the NYT shouldn't throw it around like it's obvious, and posters like SSCReader should not act like they only rely on uncontroversial assumptions.

If you can show that women are less likely to be at risk from being doxxed due to a mixture of physical attributes and due to the nature of online gender mixtures and behaviours then sure. As that was my ACTUAL claim.

Remember we are encouraged to be specific here. So do me the courtesy of addressing my actual specific argument not something else please.

I may be wrong, it's certainly happened before! But at least address my claim not some other thing you are interested in debunking.

If you can show that women are less likely to be at risk from being doxxed due to a mixture of physical attributes and due to the nature of online gender mixtures and behaviours then sure. As that was my ACTUAL claim.

The logic of the argument is faulty. The physical attributes do not make doxxing more physically dangerous for women, for the same for the same reason they don't make any other encounter more physically dangerous for women. If you want to make the claim that doxxing is some super special exception that results in more violence for women, you need to actually back that claim up with something.

Remember we are encouraged to be specific here.

No we're not. You tactic of deliberately misinterpreting the rules in order to win an argument is as bizarre as it is ineffective. Go ahead and report me, if you disagree.

But at least address my claim

I did, but you're moving the goal posts. If you're making a claim, it is enough to point out that it's logic is faulty. You do not get to demand that someone brings evidence against an ultra-specific scenario, particularly when you've brought none yourself.

I didn't say it resulted in more violence, i said it could be riskier in part due to them being weaker.

Presumably you would agree that all else being equal if a woman and a man get in a physical altercation, the woman is at greater risk of harm? Not due to any moral differences, but simple biology.

Risk includes both the likelihood of something happening and how bad the outcomes are likely to be.

The other part of my argument is that due to the gendered ratio of the internet, it is more likely for a doxxed woman to have someone decide to actually find them than for a man. I think that is true, but perhaps only slightly.

However even if that chance is entirely 50/50 the first part of my argument would still mean women are at greater risk because they are weaker.

I didn't say it resulted in more violence, i said it could be riskier in part due to them being weaker.

If violence doesn't enter the picture, I fail to see how it's in any way riskier.

Presumably you would agree that all else being equal if a woman and a man get in a physical altercation, the woman is at greater risk of harm? Not due to any moral differences, but simple biology.

No, I won't, for precisely the reason you state below.

Risk includes both the likelihood of something happening and how bad the outcomes are likely to be.

And if I show you that women tend to suffer less physical harm in the event that they do get into a physical altercation, will you concede that your argument is wrong, or will you shift the goal posts yet again?

it is more likely for a doxxed woman to have someone decide to actually find them than for a man. I think that is true

Based on what?

However even if that chance is entirely 50/50 the first part of my argument would still mean women are at greater risk because they are weaker.

Fortunately for me, both parts of your argument are either unbacked by any evidence, or completely wrong.

More comments

I think traditionally doxxing happened/happens to small people in small online communities. I would agree that major celebrity doxxing probably has gender parity in terms of badness, however I can see the smaller scale version being worse for women (or bad in a way specific to women). I think it is reasonable to assume that doxxing of random private individuals would result in more stalking/sexual harassment adjacent behaviors, when directed at women, and might intentionally be directed at women to drive that kind of behavior in others, in a way that would generally not be true for men.

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