site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

The daycare situation is a perfect example of what is wrong with Canada.

What system are you contrasting it with, the United States? I'm curious if you know what the situation there is like.

Sure, the supply is (mostly) there. In my corner of the US, I was on waitlists at somewhere between a half dozen and a dozen places and I started inquiring about 8 months before I'd need it. I was offered a spot at maybe three of them, and two were larger corporate style ones that were significantly more expensive. So definitely not close to Quebec tier where people wait years, but it's still non-trivial to find a spot.

Meanwhile, the prices per month that were quoted to me are 2500$-4000$. On the one hand, it's great that labor women have been doing forever is finally recognized as being valuable - a modern SAH parent of two is essentially providing labor worth ~70k per year. On the flip side, small comfort to the laborer making 50-75k a year and trying to raise a family who would probably appreciate Canadian daycare prices (if they could get them).

Similarly, you could make a parallel argument to the one that you made in your OP that the public Canadian healthcare system incentivizes risky behavior and overconsumption of resources because what the heck, it's free. And yet, somehow Canadians have longer life expectancies. People broadly agree that the American healthcare system is broken, although it seems likely to me that there are just different tradeoffs.

All this to say that most (all?) Western nations struggle with the things you describe. Or if they don't, I'd be fascinated to hear your counterexample of a developed nation with a functioning and cheap childcare system as well as an explanation of how they achieved it. Someone smarter than me will have to explain why this is the case; I'd assume much higher labor costs/CoL in general and higher standards. Modern daycares are strictly regulated in terms of capacity (teacher/child ratio) and safety whereas in the past (I assume) we just had gaggles of near-feral children roaming the streets.

a modern SAH parent of two is essentially providing labor worth ~70k per year.

She's not providing labour worth anything close to that. Daycare workers aren't paid that much and could be paid much less if we loosened our labour laws.

He was talking about value that stay-at-home mum provides (or saves if you wish) for the family. Between daycare, schooling, food preparation, house cleaning and other small tasks such as small repairs - the value of labor provided is really high. Labor itself may be less expensive than $70k a year for daycare center or even for restaurant, but the cost of the rest including rent, taxes and cost of additional regulation is just so high that it overrides any benefits of economies of scale in as much that the do-it-yourself approach makes a lot of sense.

I’d be surprised if at least 75% of the difference in outcomes isn’t explained by obesity and related differences in population.

On the topic of child care, SF has the same problem. The buildings and providers alike are highly regulated, with subsidies galore and predictable results.

Don't want to dogpile, but using life expectancies as a metric of societal health makes me curious how exactly one calculates how long people are going to live. Not curious enough to research it, unfortunately.

I think the obvious answer to a better daycare system is to regulate it as lightly as possible consistent with safety and provide whatever subsidy you wanted to provide to parents directly as a transfer. That way you, at minimum, don't punish stay at home parents or parents who work shifts and therefore can't easily use daycares.

I agree its a hard problem because daycare labour is very expensive no matter how you slice it. In Canada we've decided the answer is cheap at point of use, but sharp rationing of availability to turn it into a lottery. Ration by luck rather than price, creating lots of bad downstream outcomes.

On Canadian life expectancy vs. the U.S., its true we live longer but I think thats more about demographic composition and obesity rather than health care.