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"More women than men have surviving descendants" is not necessarily the same thing as "more men than women reproduced." This doesn't really matter though, what matters is there's no good evidence in the modern, post-sexual revolution west for a minority of men monopolizing a majority of the women.
What's the evidence for it? As extensively discussed in the link I provided, it's not backed up by partner counts, it's not backed up by virginity rates, it's not backed up by STD rates.
For five years in a handful of big cities, sure.
Iran has a TFR of 1.7, is regularly roiled by massive anti-regime protests, and religious affiliation is sharply declining among the nation's youth. Not much of a start.
Even if you take this statistics at face value, the conclusion isn't borne out, which is the point.
Will be rendered a non-issue by the end of the century at the absolute latest, almost certainly sooner.
What is the argument for this being a bad thing that doesn't begin with the premise, "family formation is good."
Is there good evidence for the causal impact of single motherhood on male dysfunction?
This is a non-issue. Why should I or anyone else care?
I don't know what you have in mind here, so I can't answer.
So much conservative critique of modernity boils down to waving one's hands and shouting, "look how horrible everything is!" with the listener left to draw the conclusion that things would be less horrible if we were more conservative. When I try to quantify things I usually find that the horrible things are A) much less bad than they're painted to be B) have no causal relation to conservativeness or C) are only horrible if you assume the conclusion that conservatism is good.
Eh, I'm not sure you read that correctly.
Per the link I provided, historically it's been backed up by reproductive rates. Seems to me to be quite clear.
A documented case is a documented case. It's one of the things you're asking for, right? There you go... seems like you're trying to now move the goalpost.
Okay. And? That's unrelated to what you originally asked for. I don't know what this response is supposed to make me think in light of what I quoted.
And your ultimate conclusion is what? We have 'zero' data that's worth absolutely 'anything'? A hard sell if you ask me.
It's most certainly not a non-issue to those women who value their freedom and emancipation getting sent off to die for a narrow set of political interests. It's also quite hilarious that feminism's best argument for 'not' sending women off to war in bulk is the anti-feminist argument.
And so what should they be concerned 'with' in your view? The entire project of politics is about competing visions of society and the group trying to impose their way of life on the community. I think you're being quite disingenuous here, if you're actually suggesting that conservatives writ large should be able to look out the window and say to themselves "there's nothing else left that's worth improving, onto the next unspecified problem that has no tangible impact on the world in which we live." Because that's my takeaway from what you're saying right here:
Says you and only you. And tell me. Just how 'bad' does it have to get before you start paying attention to it? Because this kind of attitude only has you constantly putting out fires all over the place and never actually addressing the issue 'before it becomes' a problem. Society requires maintenance and upkeep, just like everything else. Civilization isn't spontaneously kicked up by mother nature every few hundred years.
I have no idea what this even means, or why "conservatives" should care.
And likewise, my previous riposte is applicable:
"It isn't a measure of health how well-adjusted someone can be to a profoundly sick society."
This response is supposed to make you grasp that the most thorough effort in current times to force tradition and religion at gun point failed as thoroughly as it could fail.
Where did ayatollahs go wrong? Were they too soft, were they too concerned about human rights, should they imprison, torture and kill more?
This isn't true. In western society that remark is hyperbole and we all know it, because nobody here is forcing tradition and religion down people's throats at gunpoint. Do you know what kind of societies 'are' doing that? Afghanistan. Somalia. Not even Russia or China are doing what you're suggesting, and it's the latter that are facing these problems most intensely.
He asked what a more traditional solution sounded like. Well, I gave him one. Current trends and demographics seem to be making the case that the latter is the more attractive long-term option. The only problem with my solution isn't the content of the policy, it's that it's too piecemeal and unfortunately lacks the strength and extremism that seems necessary to reverse current trends.
This is why I've repeatedly said in this community, when nation's get caught in a death spiral like this, there's 'zero' historical evidence to suggest that they reform their way out of it. The more severe the problem becomes, the more extreme the solutions become. The more extreme the solutions become, the more unacceptable they become to the population, etc., and you end up stuck in this self-reinforcing negative feedback loop. What history suggests happens is that these nation's die off or get conquered.
This subthread is not about Western society, it is about Iran.
Iran - society with all drawbacks of modernity and none of its benefits - is not attractive at all.
If your solution is Iranian one, it is unsatisfactory.
Is Iran forcing women to have sex at gunpoint? They've done that no more than Japan, Russia, China or the west has.
And all to its own activities in the world, I'm sure. Not the fact that there's an economic war being waged against the country. Which absent wealth, what else does modernity have to give?
Iran may be down in the 4th quarter, but they know they're on the field and can at least find the ball. Other nations are living on borrowed time and unless they get their head on straight, they'll be in an even more precarious position than Iran is.
Iran is enforcing all the online trad wish list - no porn, no homosexuality, no fornication, no adultery, no no-fault divorce (on woman side), no indecent clothing, no women's (or men's) rights in general. We were told it would result in happy wonderland full of big happy families. Somehow, it happened otherwise.
So that would be a "no" then.
In your opinion, should the mullahs try harder? Should they do more?
Assuming they could try harder - remember that Iran is country with massively disaffected populace, with regular riots and urprisings with death toll in the hundreds. Country more like Tsarist Russia than Stalin's one.
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