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In this episode, we talk about the deep state, J6, and Ray Epps.
Participants: Yassine, Shakesneer.
Links:
Jack Posobiec's Pipe Bomb Allegation (Twitter)
Pipe Bombs in Washington DC (FBI)
'I started a riot for the sitting president': Why Ali Alexander won't go to jail for his role in Jan. 6 (Raw Story)
J6 Select Committee Interview of Ray Epps
Ray Epps Defense Sentencing Memo (Courtlistener)
Proud Boys Sentencing Memos (Courtlistener)
Wishing For Entrapment (Yassine Meskhout)
Recorded 2024-01-19 | Uploaded 2024-01-22
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Notes -
Remind me not to get into a factual argument with a lawyer.
Overall I found the argument that Epps is a federal informant extremely unconvincing. It seems like what was presented in the podcast wasn’t so much evidence that Epps was an informant as it was presenting a narrative that is congruent with Epps being an informant.
If you want to say that Epps got a uniquely easy deal compared to others on the FBI seeking information list, then like… show me. Are those records not public? Couldn’t somebody go through and theoretically demonstrate that he got a light treatment compared to others on the list?
If you want to tell me that Epps being removed from the list is suspicious timing, then I would want to see a timelines of names being removed, of when the FBI talked to Epps, of what the media was saying about him. Based on what I heard it seems just as likely that the FBI didn’t bother updating their list until he became a public figure.
A few random thoughts-
While I don’t see any evidence of govt. efforts making J6 worse, I do concede the idea that just a few individuals can whip up a crowd. I think crowd dynamics are somewhat conformity based- At a given protest every member of the crowd has a particular proclivity to jump a police barrier, for example. As soon as one or two people with little restraint do that, it makes it much more acceptable, leading to more people doing it, compounding the effect. Thats why police fight so hard at these barriers initially. They don’t need to stop the entire crowd from jumping the barrier, just the first few people.
Obviously you still need people willing to do it, I’m not saying this is an excuse. But as it becomes more normal, it makes the actual action less notable. There were plenty of people who ‘trespassed’ on J6 by crossing the police barrier, but aren’t worth prosecuting since at that point the barrier had been basically erased. (I have an aspiring journalist cousin who even climbed the scaffolding to take better pictures. As far as I know he’s never been contacted about that.)
I don’t particularly buy the idea that Epps ‘thought the capital was open’. That does sound like covering his ass after the fact. I think a reasonable guess is that he was simply talking a big talk, and when confronted with actually fighting police, he wises up/chickens out/realizes people will get hurt.
This is true. The problem is that even if you conclusively establish someone as responsible for whipping up a crowd, that doesn't tell you whether they were an informant or a genuine actor trying to instigate others. In the early days of the 2020 BLM protests/riots, there was the "umbrella man" who went viral for taking a sledgehammer to an Autozone and he's still hasn't been definitively identified. His behavior would be consistent with an earnest Antifa trying to whip the crowd into violence. It also shows how unpredictable crowd dynamics can be. The general reaction to umbrella man at the scene was immediate suspicion and disdain.
I vaguely remember there being a bunch of pro-BLM articles arguing that he was actually a provocateur used by evil right-wing local police commanders to discredit the protests and generate public opposition to them. The existence of these articles, plus the fact that he has never been caught, makes me wonder if he were actually an FBI provocateur who also infiltrated local Antifa groups.
If he was involved with the FBI, I don't see why the FBI would resuscitate the issue with a new call for information more than two years after the fact. If the theory is that this is them just assuaging suspicion then it's an unfalsifiable theory.
For me there's several theories that fit the facts more-or-less equally: 1) genuine but potentially inexperienced Antifa dude thinking this is how you start revolutionary mayhem 2) anti-BLM guy who wanted to discredit the protests or was hoping to whip the crowd into a riot or 3) someone who wanted to be at the forefront of a riot in order to take advantage of prime looting opportunities.
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