This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I don't think appealing to "ethnogenesis" is a steelman for not that many people (despite what certain users here want to believe). I also don't think its a steelman because those warm to the idea of a divorce (mostly Red Tribers) don't put forward this same argument.
Here's my attempt at what I think is a superior steelman.
Think of a literal marital divorce.
Oftentimes a couple divorces not because either side is bad or in the morally wrong. But because they can't tolerate each other.
It's often easier to just let each person go their own way than having to force a person to either become a completely different person or deal with someone they can't tolerate. Forcing someone to do this would be a form of psychological torture depending on how much they differ.
Much in the same way. Two groups of people within a country might be find each other intolerable. This doesn't mean either of them are wrong or bad, their values and lifestyles are incompatible.
Forcing one group to be ruled by the other, follow their values, be told what to do, is all the equivalent of psychological torture.
If their differences are vast enough there is no peaceful solution but separation, that preserves at least one of the groups identity. The alternatives are non peaceful solutions or one group assimilating into the other.
So if we aim to preserve both groups identities, and maintain peace, a divorce is the only card at hand. Because making them tolerate each other is torture.
More options
Context Copy link