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ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   35350 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 26, 2022

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Am I misremembering or are you speaking figuratively? Didn't Rittenhouse kill 2 and wound one?

I would venture that he's denying victim status to the two people Rittenhouse killed and the third he wounded - Rittenhouse being the victim. From the conservative perspective, they were aggressors who happened to aggress someone holding a loaded weapon.

From the conservative perspective

Well, also from the jury's own unanimous perspective, and therefore from the perspective of the criminal justice system.

Let's not overstate what a jury verdict means. The jury was instructed that "The burden is on the state to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act lawfully in self defense. And, you must be satisfied beyond a reasonable doubt from all the evidence in the case that the circumstances of the defendant's conduct showed utter disregard for human life."

It is standard that the state has the burden of proving that a defendant did NOT act in self-defense. So, any acquittal on self-defense grounds says little about what the jury thought of the defendant, and certainly is not an indication that they decided that he was the "real victim" nor that the decedent was the "real bad guy." And, it is certainly possible for both sides to be acting in reasonable self-defense; had Rittenhouse been killed by one of those whom he shot, his killer probably also would have been acquitted. But that would not mean that the jury decided that that killer was the "real victim" and that Rittenhouse was in the wrong.

; had Rittenhouse been killed by one of those whom he shot, his killer probably also would have been acquitted.

Why? All those that were injured or killed by Mr. Rittenhouse started the altercation. Seems like a loophole to be allowed to legally kill people, if they decide to fight back.

Because 1) The exact roles of everyone involved was in dispute; and 2) the situation was chaotic in general; and 3) here is the instruction given to the jury on the issue of self defense by an initial aggressor:

You should also consider whether the defendant provoked the attack. A person who engages in unlawful conduct of a type likely to provoke others to attack, and who does provoke an attack, is not allowed to use or threaten force in self-defense against that attack. However, if the attack which follows causes the person reasonably to believe that he is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm, he may lawfully act in self-defense. But the person may not use or threaten force intended or likely to cause death unless he reasonably believes he has exhausted every other reasonable means to escape from or otherwise avoid death or great bodily harm.

Notice that "starting the altercation" is not enough; the person must have been engaged in "unlawful conduct," and even if he does, if the other person uses what the initiator reasonably believes to a threat of imminent death or great bodily harm, all that means is that the initiator loses the right to "stand his ground."

Given all that, and given that the burden is on the government to prove,** beyond a reasonable doubt**, that the defendant was NOT acting in self-defense, the govt would have a hard time getting a conviction of anyone involved. Not impossible, certainly, but definitely an uphill battle, in this particular case. Again, I am not saying that they SHOULD be acquitted, but rather only that the probably WOULD be acquitted.

Wouldn't Rosenbaum's verbal threats, eg "if I catch any of you f**kers alone, I’ll f**king kill you," combined with his "starting the altercation" when he encountered Rittenhouse alone later in the night make it much easier in at least Rosenbaum's case? If not, that seems like a gaping hole in the law that desperately needs to be fixed.

Easier? Sure. But nevertheless, not easy. The point is that, as I noted, it is perfectly possible for both parties in an altercation to act legally in self-defense, because the jury (or, more likely, each jury, since there would probably either be separate trials or one trial with two juries) is asked to assess what happened from the point of view of each person. Who was objectively actually in danger is not the issue.

Easier? Sure. But nevertheless, not easy.

Keeping in mind that I'm not a lawyer, I'm rather confused by this assertion as I would naively expect 939.48(2) to be saying that Rosenbaum would pretty clearly have not been entitled to self-defense had he killed Rittenhouse in the encounter. I'm not sure if my confusion stems from not understanding the legalities or from a different understanding of the hypothetical (or something else), so I'll try to explain my reasoning.

My assumptions about the hypothetical are that Rosenbaum threatened Rittenhouse and his party with "if I catch any of you f**kers alone, I’ll f**king kill you," earlier in the night and this can be easily shown with witness testimony; that Rosenbaum initiated the encounter by assaulting Rittenhouse as shown in the video footage; that Rittenhouse fled, then turned and shot at Rosenbaum when cornered, again as shown in the video footage; and that Rosenbaum somehow killed Rittenhouse "in self-defense" immediately after. My expectation is that 939.48(2)(c) applies and should be easy to prove given the evidence for this chain of events. 939.48(2)(b) clearly doesn't apply since there was no disengagement. It's hard for me to see how 939.48(2)(a) would apply given Rosenbaum could have escaped at any time. What am I missing?

EDIT: Fixed formatting of quote.

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