site banner
ZorbaTHut  3yr ago (text post)   36561 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 26, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

26
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

So this really happened, it's not a parody thing?

Okay, two points: (1) I had no idea this woman could actually play any instrument, all I knew of her so far was that she is a fat rapper? singer? who does lots of 'sexy' photoshoots, so good job there, pleasantly surprised (2) who the heck thought that letting her do a performance with a crystal flute was a good idea? Suppose she dropped it? This is not something you can just go "oops" about.

I have no idea what the point of all this was; if it's for the historical musical instruments lot to show that they are "down with the kids", I don't think any Lizzo fans are going to be inspired to visit the museum. For her, I guess it's some sort of free publicity? No idea.

Although I have now learned that there is such a thing as a historical crystal flute so there is that, I guess 😁

To be fair, this is a respectable skill level, albeit not exactly virtuoso, and at least moderately professional in attire. I doubt any average Joe doing the same would get the same opportunity, but it's not the parody, either.

There's a risk of damage, but there's a pretty serious risk in anything happening ever. And playing a flute isn't exactly art restoration when it comes to likelihood of risk.

That's the performance I saw, at the museum itself. That she is able to play that instrument was a pleasant surprise, I had no idea she had that much ability at all. I still don't think letting her play it onstage was a good idea, with all the best will in the world, her hands get sweaty under the lights, her grip slips, and oops. A very expensive pile of sweeping up.

The historical musical instruments lot are probably woke enough to think ‘having an obese black woman twerk with their priceless(literally) historical artifact’ is a good in itself.

I still don’t know what’s woke about twerking, but it’s apparently important.

Oh, I couldn't tell you. First, I had no idea what twerking was. Then, I saw online outrage about white women twerking and this was cultural appropriation and they shouldn't do it. Now, She-Hulk (who is a white actress) has twerked in an episode where she's doing her lawyer job and she's doing this in her office, but all glass panels so you can see, with a client (played by someone called Megan Thee Stallion, again a name I don't recognise). So now it's okay for white women to twerk?

I have no idea, the last dance that was culturally relevant to my age and experience was punk rock pogoing (not that I ever pogoed myself, you understand).

I think the point of the whole thing is supposed to be something like 'fat black women doing overtly sexual stuff is high culture now, disapproving of & criticizing this is low-status'

Twerking especially is to be understood as a cultural phenomenon akin to (and aesthetically equal to) ballet or opera.

Seems woke to me.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats