This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What’s the point of growth? I’m asking about economies, companies, social security, and all types of organizations. And should GDP growth stop at some point, what are the unintended consequences if such a thing happened?
Malthusian thinking was wrong but it was sound science for the data he had. There’s probably a max carrying capacity for the Earth, unless we find incredible inventions. Another invention like the Haber process just seems unlikely. To me that looks like a future where most countries around the world will stabilize into an economy that treads water without growing nor contracting.
I’ve always heard from big wigs that you either grow or die? But if our future looks more like the countries with low fertility, then at the end of it doesn’t it mean that our our economy needs a new way of functioning.
Well everyone hears stories about Musk or Gates or Bezos or Lebron or Jordan or Kershaw, making astronomical figures. To most Americans that type of inequality is okay because the economy is growing like an amoeba trying things out, that sometimes get unicorn status. Now, if in the future that economic pie becomes nearly constrained, the only level of power left is the communists/technocrats that will divvy up the economic pie.
Income equality is no big deal as long as there’s a rising tide with opportunities for your own lottery ticket.
Too big to fail has morphed to become one of the worst ideas this century. Doesn’t mean they should do nothing, they should’ve kept the system afloat while reforming the system and exposes/charging all the financial decisions those big banks did. Instead we are again stuck in the same system trying to put bandaids on their recklessness.
Remember the movie The Big Short explaining CDOs? Reuters in 2019:
https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL5N22B5Q2
Why can’t we make the finance industry basic again? Without all the never ending novel financial instrument inventions—There’s almost zero productive reason that brilliant quants are needed in vast numbers on Wall Street. Unless of course you just want to make as much money as possible.
——————————
I’m sorry for how all over the place this was. I was up all night reading and had a bunch of disparate thoughts that felt quasi-connected. In the morning I’ll clean it up.
Without growth, there is a fixed pie. Anyone else's gain is your loss. It becomes extremely important that you protect what you got, because once someone else has it, they are going to fight like a cornered rat to keep it.
A society without growth might be possible, in the sense that it would not violate the law of gravity. But anyone who thinks they can pull it off and be in charge is already too dumb to actually achieve it, and they will start destroying people about 5 minutes in.
But doesn't that happen in cycles? The national economy starts to grow, then it revs up and year upon year everyone is getting richer, and it looks like the good times will never stop.
Until they do, and you are plunged into a recession. The Great Depression was like that, and so was Celtic Tiger Ireland where we were being assured that this time for sure, we had broken the old cycles, and Ireland was now going to be modern and self-sufficient and not at the mercy of outside forces anymore, and it would never stop. Then 2008 happened, and the housing bubble burst (exploded, more like) and suddenly people were taking the emigration boat and planes once more as the national economy stagnated.
The recession does not undo all the growth since the last recession. Even the Great Depression, the very rough picture was that each year of it wiped out 1 year of normal growth.
No, but recessions knock out "our economy is going to grow forever and ever and never again will there be a crash".
There is always a crash. There is always a boom.
I am not sure who in this conversation said "there will never be a down year" but anyone who said that was wrong.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link