This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You made this point the last time, and just like last time, it's still wrong on multiple facets. I'd like you to list what games you think clear the standard of "good writing," because when I think of games lauded for their story or writing, I can think of a fairly deep list, and that's mostly limiting myself to computer games (Half-Life, Deus Ex, the "Shock" games, Myst, Command & Conquer, Ultima, Spec Ops: the Line, Max Payne...)
Your post also seems to discount the large number of impactful Japanese games, a number of which I'd imagine are lauded because their storytelling or writing struck a particular chord with people (Metal Gear, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, most any FromSoft game from like Armored Core 4 to today).
I feel like responders to 2rafa's post would have benefitted from defining what it is "good writing" means to them. Whenever conversations start about writing quality it seems like every person takes their own idea into it without explaining what that is.
Is good writing the overall feel of the narrative to you? Is it the plot itself? The prose, the dialogue, the characterization, the worldbuilding?
If I think of a great video game narrative, I tend to think of games that do something interesting with the medium, something like the adventure game 999. However, I wouldn't describe 999 as having good writing - the plot and dialogue are merely ok, it's how it utilizes the medium to deliver everything that makes it shine.
Similarly, some games basically abandon "writing" altogether; someone below mentioned Ico, and Ueda's games always opt for very minimalist stories, which is something you can get away with in a game but not in other mediums. However, simply opting out of writing shouldn't be called "good writing" even if it produces a very good game.
Meanwhile, titles like Deus Ex and Metal Gear Solid have very interesting plots and worlds, but the prose and dialogue are distinctly sub-par. I think this is what 2rafa means when they say the writing is bad.
Of course, both titles offer a lot to discuss in that regard. For example, how much of their experiences are defined by the technology of the time? Infamous lines like "What a shame" and "A bomb!" in Deus Ex might work a lot better with modern animations and voice acting. On the other hand, Kojima's 4th wall breaking was bold at the time but would be passé if done now. Plus, if they weren't very good games in other aspects, would anyone remember them?
More options
Context Copy link
I can’t take seriously someone who thinks that Kojima’s writing is good. Cult classic in a weird, schizo, Japanese man has fever dream based on American popular media and current affairs type way, maybe, but good? Deus Ex’s writing is OK, the reboots are better and less hackneyed (and I think Mary DeMarle is one of the best game writers), but it still doesn’t reach network TV level, let alone beyond. Spec Ops does something interesting with narrative, the moment to moment dialogue is rarely impressive but I do really like it as a narrative experience and I’d say it’s on the list.
Writing doesn’t have to be good to strike a chord with people. Harry Potter struck a chord with many people even though Rowling isn’t a great writer (she’s not a bad one either). Sitcoms like Friends strike a chord with many people even though the writers frequently phone it in. Characters, their vibe, parasocial relationships with them, these are all big reasons why people find themselves drawn to very long stories (which a sitcom in syndication is, to some extent) like Dragon Age, Baldur’s Gate, Persona, I’ve met people deeply invested in World of Warcraft’s ongoing story lol. But that doesn’t make it good.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link