site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 18, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Civil law countries don’t see eminent domain as (as) adversarial, it’s often just a matter of calculating compensation, processes are streamlined, there is no widespread belief that the state isn’t allowed to expropriate the land, only that they should pay for it. In a lot of common law jurisdictions, objectors can often demand to know why their land has to be taken, or demand to propose alternate routes, [instead of the state simply] seizing the land first, starting construction, then resolving squabbles over compensation later.

In the nicest possible way, I think that's the most eloquent and convincing argument for common law land rights I've ever heard. I get that it causes problems but gosh, the alternative sounds pretty bad.

I mean, the Texas high speed rail is delayed more or less indefinitely because a bunch of ranchers on the route didn’t get the appropriate concessions to acquiesce to eminent domain, so they convinced the Texas nationalists it was a George Soros WEF plot to bring in a UN occupation to provide political cover to their lawfare.

Now obviously the Texas high speed rail could have bargained with the farmers(they wanted more stops to provide local employment and a few concessions on cattle-crossing logistics and were willing to waive their compensation rights if those conditions were granted, both of which seem like they could have come to a reasonable agreement on), but still.

And of course on the third hand the project may well be more an exercise in green fetishism rather than a practical idea; the Dallas-Houston route is well served by commuter flights and luxury buses which puts an upper floor on the price tag for rail tickets.

the Dallas-Houston route is well served by commuter flights and luxury buses which puts an upper floor on the price tag for rail tickets.

I've long been wondering whether a better application of HSR wouldn't be to urban centers directly, but to major airports. Ideally, the airport already has transit options into the city available, are generally on the outskirts of town where routing rail travel would be easier, and, while airlines might be unhappy about losing short flights, there are lots of short connections to hubs that could probably be faster by train than an extra connecting flight. Austin and San Antonio to Dallas or Houston, Chicago to Milwaukee, Oklahoma City to Dallas, Phoenix to Tuscon. All these flights are about an hour, and fly more than half a dozen flights daily each way, many of which are, I assume, to take a much longer flight from the larger airport, because driving would take a similar amount of time and solve getting around at the destination.

Well, it depends. I don’t think the question of whether some random farmer should be able to block a $100bn infrastructure project that has the potential to improve millions of people’s lives and contribute to higher economic growth and prosperity for many people because of the principle of private property is absolute is an easy one.

Agreed, and I don’t want to suggest it is. Only that (to paraphrase) “the state can take your home without telling you why, there’s nothing you can do, and even if you argue on good legal grounds they’ll ignore you and take it anyway” sounds pretty grim and also open to abuse.

A part of the problem is that, as urbanisation increases, these projects aren’t designed to benefit flyover locals and everyone knows it. Ideally people would be happily giving up their land so that their area can join in the new wave of prosperity from the 100bn project, as (I think?) was the case with the original train system. But instead projects like HS2 mostly exist explicitly for elite urban traffic to bypass you.