site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 18, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

"The following story is fictional and does not depict any actual person or event."

Does placing a disclaimer before a show give you unlimited ability to then defame a person? Yes I am talking about Law and Order. And specifically the episode that aired last night “Facade”. Airing March 21, 2024.

The first 45 minutes or so fairly accurately portray the case of Daniel Perry who using a chokehold caused the death of Jordan Neely a homeless man who frightened passengers on a NYC subway.

Spoilers now so watch the episode or just read. The last 15 minutes show that he’s every leftist fantasy of what a white male really is. Turns out while doing the chokehold he said “blood and dirt” an obvious reference to Nazis and “blood and soil”. Furthermore the gym he goes to is ran by an undercover cop investigating white supremacists. He’s actually a full fledged Nazi collecting weapons to plan another very violent January 6. Non of this can be presented at trial because the white supremacists investigation is more important than convicting him at trial of murder.

Where am I going with this? This feels like defamation to me. There is no evidence that the real life Daniel Perry has any ties to actual Nazis.

I completely think art needs to have an ability to show real events. And I liked Law and Order back in the day. But there is a real life Daniel Perry and if I loosely followed the news I would 100% know the episode is referring to him. They followed the facts in the case accurately for 45 min. The last 15 min he is a terrorist Nazi. I would assume the last 15 min are referencing something in his background and he has some ties to real Nazis.

Without ruining the entire genre and making it impossible to do this feels like defamation to me. A midtwit would be under the impression it’s about him and he’s a real Nazi. But the real Daniel Perry is not a Nazi.

This leads to two questions for me. The lawyers can comment on the actual legal line here. The non-lawyers can discuss whether he’s damaged any differentially than if CNN just ran a bunch of made up stuff he was a Nazi. He’s a real private person and I think I can fairly say a lot of people would watch the episode and assume he has real Nazi ties.

There is one more element of art depicting reality. The FBI has instigated and put under covers in against normie Republicans and Pro-Life people on the grounds they are a national security threat but they probably aren’t in those cases full fledged terrorist.

If I were Daniel Perry I would try to sue. I feel like his reputation was damaged and he has real damages but not a lawyer to know the legal lines and I would assume NBC has lawyers but I still feel like he has a real reputational damage. Plus he’s going on trial and a juror who saw the episode would now think he has undisclosed nazi ties.

There is probably some who is the bad person thing here. In their fictional depictions from episodes 20 years ago I probably didn’t care when they added some negative stuff to a black character etc. But now that white people are bad I get upset when they add he was a Nazi about to commit 1/6 or 9/11 to their fictional portrayal of real events.

In summary his obvious fictional portrayal of his actions added a whole he’s a real Nazi plot line but they began the episode with a disclaimer it’s fictional.

Edit: I would be curious if anyone else watched the episode. Or if everyone is assuming I am appropriately representing the episode as they portrayed him as a “full-fledged nazi with a desire to kill black people” as accurate. And that exaggeration is expected now.

Writing this from my law office — No, it's not defamation, and it isn't close. In addition to the disclaimer:

  1. They changed his name
  2. I didn't see the episode, but they probably changed a number of other details as well, and
  3. It's a television show that no one is confusing for a news program.

Defamation requires statements of fact, and it's hard to argue that such a blatant fictionalization is making factual statements. I would also add that your proving my point by the fact that you confused Daniel Penny with Daniel Perry, who is currently serving a lengthy prison sentence for actions motivated by white supremacy, and I'm apparently the only one who's noticed this so far. Accordingly, I don't know how much Mr. Penny could argue that the episode was about him if even a viewer as astute as yourself can't accurately identify the supposed victim.