Eetan
5mo ago
If I am "supporting" the military with a vote, I also am not a civilian, because the purpose of voting is to avoid internal civil wars.
This might be your personal opinion, but international law disagrees and clearly lays out who is combatant and who is civilian.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/article-50
Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol I), 8 June 1977.
Article 50 - Definition of civilians and civilian population
- A civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4 A (1), (2), (3) and (6) of the Third Convention and in Article 43 of this Protocol. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian.
- The civilian population comprises all persons who are civilians.
- The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.
These categories are there:
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciii-1949/article-4
(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:
(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
...
(4) Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.
...
(6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
back to Oct 7 event:
Not really. They didn't make any real attempts to target IDF soft targets.
In December this figure was further revised using social security data to 1,139.[14] This number consists of 764 civilians, including 36 children, and 373 security forces,[14] the youngest of whom was 10 months old and the eldest 25 people over age 80.[14][175]
...
They also actively fled engagement with IDF instead, fleeing them, and targeting residences where they had zero reason to expect to particularly find IDF resources.
According to your previous definition, voting is act of combat and anyone who votes is therefore legitimate target.
Combined with their cowardly appeals
And now you keep adding another things.
Just say what you want to say: "We good, ug. They bad, ug ug. We kill them, this good, ug ug ug. They kill us, this bad, ug ug ug ug."
Interesting thought experiment, let me see how would actual atheists react at these "provocations."
A statue of Charles Darwin and Karl Marx in their best suits, French kissing atop a pile of human skulls
Why is bashing Darwin who never claimed to be atheist supposed to trigger atheists?
This would be seen as creationist talking point from bygone Bush era, equating communism and evolution. Reaction of atheist, even Marxist atheist, would be bewilderment and perhaps despair at their opponents ignorance, rather than murderous rage.
A statue of Margaret Sanger and Madalyn Murray O'Hair standing back-to-back, dressed as Greek priestesses, each holding a knife in one hand and together holding the corpse of a Black baby
Margaret Sanger never identified herself as atheist either, no idea why is you see her as some atheist idol, and today she is revered by few people, least of all modern progressives.
Madalyn Murray O'Hair was fiery atheist activist well known all over America - in her time. Now she is completely forgotten.
Atheist reaction at this scene would be: WTF? What is it supposed to mean (except celebrating racism)?
The Invisible Pink Unicorn (possibly made of pink-glazed blown glass, in the style of My Little Pony) as the steed bearing the returning Jesus, depicted as a Super-Saiyan, His head and hair burning white, His eyes like a flame of fire, His feet like fine brass
Atheist reaction would be something between "this is weird" and "this is cool".
Or, if we want to avoid humanoid and animal statues entirely per the Third Commandment, an orrery (representing science) surrounded by gravestones bearing the names of Marx, Darwin, O'Hair, Sanger, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde, Christopher Hitchens, and other prominent atheists.
Atheist contemplating this scene would perhaps feel impermanence of all things, in mono no aware sense.
You see that none of these provocations are very provoking, none would be seen by atheists as blasphemous and insulting like Christians see satanic statue.
Thinking about it, I cannot imagine something that would provoke atheists like blaspheming Jesus and celebrating Satan provokes Christians. This is something that disproves your claim that atheism is "just another religion".
If true, what is holy book of atheism, what are temples of atheism, who is the "prophet of atheism" whose dissing would turn atheists into murderous mob screaming for vengeance?
edit: links fixed
Eetan
6mo ago
How else do you interpret “from the river to the sea”?
It could be interpreted as call for genocide, it could be also interpreted as call for one state solution, creation of one state where Palestinians and Jews would live happily together as equal citizens with equal rights (this means equal right to return to both Jews and Palestinians).
Could such state work?
Combined total population of current Holy Land is 12,8 million split roughly equally between Jews and Palestinians.
Outside of the land, total number of Palestinians is about 6 million, while Jews outside of Israel eligible by Law of Return to immigrate are about 17 million.
Assuming everyone returns home according to the plan, total population of the Holy Land will rise to respectable 36 million. Divided by 25,500 square km of land, it gives population density of ~ 1411 ppl/km2.
Hellish nightmare, you might say, just little less hellish than Houston, TX.
How would be Mega City Mideast governed? We are in the 21st century, democracy is out and absolute rule by Dictatorate of Supreme Judges is in. We are destined to dystopic future anyway, why not pick the cool British one?
Eetan
6mo ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Christianity is at least as unbacked by evidence and reason as transgender ideology. Believing that a certain man 2000 years ago was the son of god and rose from the dead is at least as unbacked by evidence and reason as believing that a man can become a woman by calling himself a woman and doing surgeries.
In theory yes, in practice no. Your parents dragging you as child to church for dunking in cold water or to gender clinic for gender affirming treatment is one big difference.
But many people here on The Motte give Christianity a pass because it's really old and really popular and so it seems "normal", because they like its cultural/political connotations, and probably in some cases because they were raised Christian.
Because Christianity is no big issue here, because only arguments for Christianity usually presented here are: "it is ancient" "it is our tradition" "churches are beautiful" "church music is inspiring" "if you are lonely, you will find friends in church" "you must believe in something, why not Jesus" etc...
If poster, or group of posters tried to preach, evangelize and missionize here in noughties hardcore style, if they came and argued for literal existence of God, literal truth of the Bible and literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, they would not be given any "pass", they would face strong opposition and generated lots of interesting discussions full of heat and light. Anyone who does not remember the great Atheist-Christian war of the noughties, missed internet at its best.
Eetan
6mo ago
Astrology worked at least two millenia more, and all modern problems began when arrogant modern "science" rejected ancient wisdom of the stars. Good that modern people are RETVRNING to tradition.
Eetan
6mo ago
No need. Everybody who was somebody was friend of Epstein, from William Burns to Noam Chomsky.
Dead bird link here, if you are interested in going further down this rabbit hole.
Eetan
6mo ago
No need for gossip. Respectable mainstream sources suffice.
It's pretty unlikely that such a war would even be fought with AR15s, much less tanks and planes.
No, a future American civil war would inevitably involve significant state-to-state territorial disputes because the breakdown in federal authority necessitates big states establishing their regional hegemony to safeguard their own stability and non-isolation from both resources and markets. This process involves lots of conventional armies moving around because that’s what governments do.
Crunching some numbers to get a rough sense about potential Second US CW.
Compared to most of world's armies, US armed forces are enormous.
Compared to US territory and population, they are tiny, especially the high tech part.
Assuming US population as 330 million:
2,800 tanks = one tank/118,000 Americans
3,500 aircraft = one plane/95,000 Americans
760 helicopters = one chopper/435,000 Americans
And all these wonder weapons are dependent on supply from American and world economies, who would cease to exist when North America turns into Somalia on ice.
For comparison, in Syria in 2011 when the late unpleasantness began, the ratio was:
Counting Syrian population as 21 million:
4,800 MBT = one tank/4,375 Syrians
4,500 IFV = one IFV/4,666 Syrians
575 aircraft = one plane/36,000 Syrians
191 helicopters = one chopper/110,000 Syrians
Conclusion: Second US Civil War will be fought with pickup trucks and construction machinery with extra metal plates welded on.
And drones. Drones, drones, drones. Masses of 3D printed plastic drones swarming from horizon to horizon.
Yes, bikes too, our poster Kulak's dream coming true.
Interesting times for everyone involved(and the whole world will be involved).
edit: links set properly
Eetan
6mo ago
As for the perennial Afghanistan comparisons, it's one thing to fight halfassedly for ambitious-but-vague non-military goals, with your troops restrained by unworkable RoEs put in place by lawyers and by a State Department for whom the real enemy is the Pentagon, when you're halfway around the world, and can safely call it quits and go back home at any time without anybody near the top suffering even the tiniest of career consequences. It's another when "home" is where you're fighting. The consequences for losing a civil war/revolution are generally a lot more severe and lethal ("you win or you die" and all that).
Of modern wars, better comparison to hypothetical Second American Revolution/Civil War would be Syria.
Place where pious and traditional rural red rebels rose against godless coastal urbanite blue oppressors (and lost very badly).
It is one of best documented conflicts of history, but few people want to study and learn from this immensely depressing story.
Eetan
6mo ago
In the Xth best world, the media would stop signal-boosting all the evil cardiologists. Assuming that this actually happened as described, there's a difference between a non-representative person and a representative one.
If this person was just old geezer of no importance, no one would care about dispute between Stuart the Pensioner and Mohammed the Halal Vendor.
But this person is someone of note, and it is worthy to ask whether he is representative of his class and milieu, and, if so, what it means for understanding of American diplomacy and foreign policy, what it means for trust in American-negotiated "Mideast peace process".
Eetan
6mo ago
Oderunt tum metuant. You don't need people's belief, all you need is their compliance. "Understanding is not required, only obedience," as Babylon 5's Minbari would say.
As fictional character in fictional world would say.
You can do anything you like with bayonets, except sit on them.
As one of most skilled and accomplished politicians in the real history of the real world would say.
Eetan
6mo ago
And we have much better medical technology.
When the next oops comes, at least half of the population will refuse to follow the expert's orders and use the newly advanced technology (which half will depend whether the new treaments are coded blue or red this time).
Eetan
6mo ago
This seems to me a quite bad refutation of white nationalism.
The best refutation of white nationalism is fact that there is no such thing as "white nation", that all the hundreds of millions of pale skinned people all over the world (white nationalists themselves vigorously disagree all the time on the basic issue who exactly should count as "white") do not see themselves as "one nation" and do not see any stranger with the same skin color as their brothers or sisters.
White nationalists have to build their nation out of nothing, have to organize, educate and agitate on unprecendted worldwide scale, have to persuade, for example, Balkan and Eastern European peoples to put down their mutual grievances and see each other as fellow white comrades.
Do you see any force capable of such monumental task? I don't.
Eetan
6mo ago
Not just GoF research. After three years of misery caused by people playing God just to publish marginally more interesting papers than their peers, we now have a bunch of people racing to create a digital God, with who-knows-what outcome.
This is not the same thing. Artificial intelligence promises audacious scientific breakthroughs to Mad Scientist, ultimate surveillance and control to Evil Overlord, unprecedented giga-profits to Corrupt Corporate Executive. Everyone who is someone needs and wants it.
Science fiction authors of golden, silver, bronze and trash ages would understand and approve.
But GoF research, that is really about nothing than few more scientific papers for never-to-be-read pile? Any science fiction author of note would laugh at this plot, any magazine editor would reject this premise even as satire.
Eetan
6mo ago
Since special thread dedicated to current Middle Eastern issues fell into abeyance, I am posting latest war culture war report from the scorching sands of Middle East cold and brutal streets of Gotham City.
And the latest victim of the war is one Stuart Seldowitz, former humanitarian diplomacy consultant, National Security Council member and deputy director of the US State Department’s Office of Israel and Palestinian Affairs,who fell in glorious struggle against terrorism was arrested by NYPD for persistent harrassment of halal food street vendor.
In one widely shared video, Seldowitz is heard to ask the unidentified vendor: “Did you rape your daughter like Muhammad did?” In another, he states: “If we killed 4,000 Palestinian kids, you know what? It wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough.”
When the vendor says he doesn’t speak English, Seldowitz laughs and says, “That’s why you’re selling food in a food cart, because you’re ignorant,” before suggesting that the vendor will be deported to Egypt and tortured by intelligence agents.
“The mukhabarat in Egypt will get your parents,” Seldowitz said in the video. “Does your father like his fingernails? They will take them out one by one.” The vendor is heard asking Seldowitz to “please go” and saying that he would call the police.
An NYPD spokesperson told the outlet that they are aware of the videos and monitoring the situation but that no reports had been filed. The woman who posted the videos, who is believed to be a social activist and Columbia University graduate, said Seldowitz had been harassing the vendor for weeks.
According to some reports, the street vendor was allegedly previously tearing down posters with dead and kidnapped Israelis.
Whole incident was covered on dead bird site in every possible angle, if you are even only casual deadbirders, you already learned about it and made your own minds.
What is my take?
In the best possible world, no one would be tearing these posters, because there would be no such posters on the streets of Gotham City, because whole world, including Middle East, would live in peace and harmony, there would be no wars, no one would be killed, no one would be kidnapped, no house would be bombed or bulldozed.
In the second best possible world, no one would be tearing these posters, because there would be no such posters on the streets of Gotham City, because no one living in Gotham City would care enough about some war going on the other side of the world to deface their beloved city.
In the third best possible world, no one would be tearing these posters, because there would be no such posters on the streets of Gotham City, because laws of Gotham City against posting and graffiti would be strictly enforced and people splattering around unauthorized posters and leaflets would be fined (and, in case of repeated and persistent vandalism, deported from the city).
Well, we do not live in any of these worlds.
Eetan
6mo ago
Herbivore "function" in nature is the same as of other lifeforms - survive, escape being eaten and reproduce.
Eetan
6mo ago
As Chesterton says, Christianity has died at least five times and rose again stronger from the tomb. It's almost as if there's a theme somewhere in the Gospels...
You probably mean Hillaire Belloc, writer even more prolific than Chesterton and one half of "Chesterbelloc" inseparable duo.
In The Great Heresies he boasts how the Church survived attacks of Arianism, Islam, Cathars, Reformation and modern unbelief and ends in rather optimistic tone.
Of this new tendency to sympathize with Catholicism--and in the case of strong characters to take the risk, to accept the Faith, and proclaim themselves the defenders of it--there can be no doubt. Even in England, where the traditional feeling against Catholicism is so universal and so strong, and where the whole life of the nation is bound up with hostility to the Faith, the conversions which strike the public eye are continually the conversions of men who lead in thought; and note that for one who openly admits conversion there are ten at least who turn their faces toward the Catholic way, who prefer the Catholic philosophy and its fruit to any others, but who shrink from accepting the heavy sacrifices involved in a public avowal.
...
Even the most misguided or the most ignorant of men, talking vaguely of "Churches," are now using a language that rings hollow. The last generation could talk, in Protestant countries at least, of "the Churches." The present generation cannot. There are not many churches; there is one, it is the Catholic Church on the one side and its mortal enemy on the other. The lists are set.
Thus are we now in the presence of the most momentous question that has yet been presented to the mind of man. Thus are we placed at a dividing of the ways, upon which the whole future of our race will turn.
The book was written in 1938 and, sadly for Catholic Church, Belloc's optimism turned out to be badly misplaced.
Catholic church rejected everything that would make it Catholic in Bellloc's eyes and is not looking very well.
Protestant churches are still there, and the churches that are thriving and growing are churches that would drive Belloc into rage and total despair, if he saw them.
As great sage said, "It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."
Eetan
6mo ago
Eetan
6mo ago
It's insane that any GoF research is allowed in the first place. Those jokers aren't even doing it to create new vaccines?
This is the most blackpilling thing about the whole COVID incident.
Modern apocalyptic and post apocalyptic science fiction was wrong. Armageddon will not come because of power hunger of big governments or greed of mega corporations.
Old time pulp fiction was wrong too. Armageddon will not come becaue of brilliant and audacious plans of genius mad scientist, and definitely will not be averted at last minute by slack jawed Action Hero.
Apocalypse will come due to few hundred, thousand at most, rather mediocre people, people with names, faces and adresses out there who are not protected and hiding at all, playing russian roulette with all mankind, openly and brazenly.
For ultimate power? For unlimited wealth? To create paradise on earth? To have revenge on the whole world?
Nope. They do it to publish few articles no one will ever read in prestigious journals to burnish their citation metrics. Nothing personal, just scientific bureaucratic process working as intended.
And mankind as a whole is fine with it.
Everything keeps going, everyone is waiting for the next oops.
Only reaction, after three years so far, is ... one country's proposal to stop public funding of this pastime. Better than nothing, but not by very much.
Conclusion: Just stop worrying. Humanity is NGMI, and fully deservedly so.
Eetan
6mo ago
And what makes this case more disturbing is it was uncovered by random chance.
Pathogens labeled ‘HIV’ and ‘Ebola’ found inside secret, illegal Chinese-owned biolab in California
The illegal lab was operated in the city of Reedley, Calif., and the potential public safety risk it posed only came to light in December 2022 when Jesalyn Harper, an observant code enforcement officer, noticed a green garden hose sticking out of a hole in the side of a warehouse that was thought to be vacant for more than a decade.
What else is out there, only completely inauspicious from the outside?
Just one more of "glitches in the matrix", random occurences when you pull up your carpet a little, take a short peek at various things scurrying under it (and then put the carpet back and quickly forget what you saw).
Things like Hunter's laptop, DNC mails (and other famous and less famous leaks) and, on much darker note, things like the Finders cult.
Eetan
6mo ago
When I look up ancient literature in the Bronze Age I don’t see anything from Greece - how much do we really know about these people, how they felt, and what they thought?
It is true that we do not have literature, poetry or historical chronicles of Bronze Age Greeks. Maybe they never existed, maybe they were never written down, maybe they were written on perishable material.
But we have lots of detailed bureaucratic records, similar to ones from Near Eastern states.
We can know a lot about these centrally planned, militaristic, theocratic and bureaucratic societies, we can know well that stereotypical Bronze Age man was not wild barbarian looting, raping and pillaging from horizon to horizon, but conscientious office worker dutifully filing all the forms on clay tablets in triplicate.
We know well that while Troy existed and was destroyed at the time, the plot of Iliad is pure fantasy - real Briseis would be given number and personal file in archive, assigned to workplace and issued clothing and ration card like any other laborer.
These two principles don't often conflict in Europe, but it's a damn hard dilemma. Probably it's easier to solve with AI driving than by rebuilding most of your cities
Easiest way to solve it would be to make America greater than ever before, with population size and density that would make car heavy suburban lifestyle impossible.
edit: link
Eetan
6mo ago
"White Christian civilization" died intellectually in the 18th century, when elite human capital of Europe rejected old Christian values and adopted Enlightenment ones.
"The Jews" played very small part in the process, unless you want to lay all praise/blame for enlightenment on Baruch Spinoza alone.
Politically, it perished since 1789. (((They))) held also minuscule role in these events.
Everything since then is just rearranging the rubble.
All of this is conflating two different meanings of "miracle".
In ancient world, there was distinction between 1/"paradoxon" - any strange and inexplicable thing or event and 2/"semeion" - sign or portent, that does not have to be extraordinary by itself, sent by god(s) or fate.
The difference is that semeion means something and the meaning is clear.
For example:
Lightning falling from a cloudless sky - paradoxon. It could be bad omen or warning, or Zeus could be just bored.
Ligtning falling during thunderstorm and exactly hitting notorious sinner's house - semeion. The meaning is clear: Repent and do not sin anymore.
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