Eetan
5mo ago
Time for current culture war item, reviving 20 years old controversies in much different world.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is now a Christian
Some feel it as betrayal, some as vindication, but all see it as big thing. But is it a thing of any importance?
Reading through the manifesto, it seems strange. First, it does not contain the word "Jesus", not even once. Neither the word "salvation".
So what it talks about?
Threats to precious Western democracy, freedom, rules based international order and Judeo-Christian tradition
Part of the answer is global. Western civilisation is under threat from three different but related forces: the resurgence of great-power authoritarianism and expansionism in the forms of the Chinese Communist Party and Vladimir Putin’s Russia; the rise of global Islamism, which threatens to mobilise a vast population against the West; and the viral spread of woke ideology, which is eating into the moral fibre of the next generation.
But we can’t fight off these formidable forces unless we can answer the question: what is it that unites us? The response that “God is dead!” seems insufficient. So, too, does the attempt to find solace in “the rules-based liberal international order”. The only credible answer, I believe, lies in our desire to uphold the legacy of the Judeo-Christian tradition.
historical facts as accurate as "Cleopatra was black"
To me, this freedom of conscience and speech is perhaps the greatest benefit of Western civilisation. It does not come naturally to man. It is the product of centuries of debate within Jewish and Christian communities.
and mid-life crisis. Permanent Middle Eastern crisis is child's play compared to eternally recurring middle life crisis.
Atheism failed to answer a simple question: what is the meaning and purpose of life?
So why Christianity?
In this nihilistic vacuum, the challenge before us becomes civilisational. We can’t withstand China, Russia and Iran if we can’t explain to our populations why it matters that we do. We can’t fight woke ideology if we can’t defend the civilisation that it is determined to destroy.
How is Christianity supposed to help in fighting "China, Russia and Iran" is left unclear. Of these coutries, Russia explicitly claims to fight for Christianity against Western Jewish Nazi homosexual Satanism.
How would AHA answer Putin, how would she prove that his interpretation of Christianity is wrong and her "Judo-Christian" faith is the true Christian tradition and true message of Jesus?
And for wokeism, Christianity hadn't proved not to be very effective in fighting it.
(and if you need Christianity do defeat something so absurd as wokeism, you already lost)
SENIOR: What would you like for your birthday, son?
JUNIOR: I want to chop off my dick, dad.
SENIOR: Do not do it, son!
JUNIOR: Why?
SENIOR: (long pause and head scratching) The Bible! The Bible forbids it, son!
JUNIOR: Where?
SENIOR: (fast and frantic searching through book) Wait, son! It must be here, somewhere!
That is why I no longer consider myself a Muslim apostate, but a lapsed atheist. Of course, I still have a great deal to learn about Christianity. I discover a little more at church each Sunday. But I have recognised, in my own long journey through a wilderness of fear and self-doubt, that there is a better way to manage the challenges of existence than either Islam or unbelief had to offer.
Curious what exact church AHA joined. Churches that simultaneously reject wokeism and support "civilization war" against Axis of Evil, churches that fly Ukraine, Israeli and Taiwan flags but lack rainbow, trans and BLM flags tend to be rather thin of the ground.
Eetan
7mo ago
I Want To Believe (in Marx's Labor Theory of Value)
Content warning: this post contains MARXISM. If seeing Marx's massive beard or even hearing his name is too traumatic for you, stop reading now.
...
Recently I found one interesting article, not interesting in itself, but how it illustrates arguments about psychological necessity of faith and belief frequently discussed here.
Yes, it is Marxist article written by professional Marxist in Marxist journal. Last chance to avert your eyes from forbidden lore is now.
...
Yes, it is very obscure, but if post about civil war in furry community can pass there, this might too.
If you are interested how I got there, the route was Anatoly Karlin -> devcroix -> journal article by distinguished academic historian -> academic journal dedicated to Marxist theory
Was Stalin a Marxist? And If He Was, What Does This Mean for Marxism?
(tl;dr: yes he was, it means lots of things for Marxism, none of them nice)
This is not the article I wanted to share.
This is the article.
Unfree Labour and Value Productivity: Challenges for the Marxian Labour Theory of Value by another academic, not distinguished enough yet to deserve his own Wiki page.
So what is it all about?
Labor theory of value(LTV), the cornerstone of Marxist thought. If LTV fails, whole Marxism crashes to the ground.
Narrator voice: it failed, it was debunked many times, starting in 1890's. Somehow, it had no effects on world historical events of 20th century.
So, what exactly is this article about?
This paper explores the question: does unfree labour produce value?
According to Big Beard Man's theory, it does not. (Practical Marxists later strongly disagreed, but this is not topic of this article)
Since the direct purpose and the actual product of capitalist production is surplus value, only such labour is productive [...] as directly produces surplus value.
But why is it? (except that Marx said so) What is the distinction between wage and slave labor, slave and animal labor, animal and machine labor?
Author examines these distinction, and finds them rather arbitrary.
No need to read 40 pages of Marxspeak(I hadn't either), this table summarizes the argument and the dilemma.
there is no theory-internal logical barrier to believing that wage labourers do produce value but unfree human labourers do not, that human slaves produce value but animal slaves do not, or that animals produce value but machines do not. All of these options lie within the space of open possibilities.
So, Marxist author in this article deboonks cornerstone of Marxist philosophy and watches the whole thing tumbling down in its own footprint like the towers on Nine Eleven.
This had been done many times before, this is not the importance of this article, the importance is in his last sentences.
At times, Marx is adamant that wage-labour is an absolute sine qua non for the creation of surplus-value, and I have a hunch that this is the view he should stick with
(long Marx quote)
But I do not know how to affirm this tenet except as an article of faith.
It is not about materialism and science, it is about faith.
The author still has faith, still needs to believe, still wants to "stick with Marx", still wants to "affirm" the tenet he just destroyed, still considers himself Marxist and begs desperately fellow professional Marxists to help him (these are the only people who would ever read this journal, I am possibly first non-Marxist to stumble on this article)
This is completely natural human behavior. Rationalist credo "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be" is deeply abnormal for human beings.
Are you laughing at him? This is exactly the same thing as all who people who wish wistfully "if only I had faith in God" "if only I could belong to Church".
Eetan
7mo ago
Classical Greece, Rome, India, Persia, were all spawned from Indo-European cultural, genetic, and linguistic legacy after the Bronze Age invasions.
Millenia later, time enough for psychopathic genes of original Indo-Europeans to be selected out and more pro-civilization traits emerge. Before it happened, Indo-Europeans achieved exactly zilch. Nothing "vague" about it, straight HBDIQ materialist science.
Razib is right, there is absolutely nothing to respect about continent size psycho killing spree, nothing to admire about people so stupid that cannot grok even idea of slavery.
Friends, stop the killing for a moment! Maybe if we leave the peasants alive and make them work for us, we can live well in big houses instead of huts and dugouts?
NO! BLOOD! GORE! DEATH! KILL! KILL! KILL!
...
I.E studies is going to likely remain a growing area of interest in the DR. It combines genetics, history, and mythmaking in a way that fosters a positive sense of identity and aspiration
Perhaps if you aspire to be school shooter or serial killer. If you have higher ambitions, the IE "legacy" has nothing to offer you.
His memoirs
"anarchist" who sees long dead penny ante dictator as divine being? Why not, point of real free speech is the opportunity to hear all voices!
Or any of the dozens of works he published.
If it proves anything, it proves that Pinochet memes are just garbage memes and no one really gives a fuck about El Presidente.
Any shit tier Japanese hentai manga is pirated and put online with fan made English (and Russian and Chinese and Korean) translation in few days after publication, for free, only from pure fannish devotion.
The Marxists had extensive online library of their classics as long as Internet was a thing.
The archive was created in 1990 by a person — known only by their Internet tag, Zodiac — who started archiving Marxist texts by transcribing the works of Marx and Engels into E-text, starting with the Communist Manifesto. In 1993 the accumulated text was posted on a gopher site at csf.colorado.edu. Volunteers joined and helped spread and mirror the main archive.
Where are Pinochet's fans? Why aren't they preserving and spreading gospel of their guru? Either they do not exist, or they are completely useless.
Even Pinochet himself didn't GAF. He could order his collected works to be translated to major world languages and distributed world wide to enlighten all mankind.
ALBANIA did it. No excuse for Chile.
Anyway, in age of internet, all this complaining that "banned books" are not printed by anyone is as obsolete as steam locomotive.
Do you think there is some obscure but important book that should be available to the world?
Put it on libgen.
You personally.
In the worst case, potato phone copy made in library.
Yes, many libraries today do allow photography. And even if they do not, perk of being anarchist is that you do not have to ask for permission.
It is not hard, there are people with nothing than little money and university library card who are doing it in their free time, these people made libgen into what it is.
Information does not want to be free.
Autistic obssessives want information to be free.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
edit: links, links, links linked up properly
we should restructure all of society based on these projections is yet another outlandish claim (with a side-helping of massive conflicts of interests)
These are two distinct propositions unrelated to each other.
"Leeches, bloodletting and self flagellation do nothing to stop plague."
"There is no plague. Fever, black spots all over the body and vomiting blood are completely normal. Everything is fine."
We should expect some kind of climate change a-priori. Anything else is nonsense. We've known CO2 is a greenhouse gas since 1859. Very basic.
Exactly. Climate change does not rest on Al Gore and Greta, it rests on basic 19th century science.
If you do not trust these free masons, you can replicate their experiments at home, you do not have to take their words on faith.
If your political tribe requires you to deny simple laws of physics, find better one.
Eetan
11mo ago
So, if Joe Biden fired all Jews and replaced them with good Catholics, as good Catholics as himself and his family, your culture would be protected and you would be happy?
You in 1923:
These Jewish bolsheviks are horrible, this life is unbearable.
If only they were fired and replaced with Christians, if some good Christian man was in charge of the Party, someone who was raised by pious Christian mother, perhaps even someone who studied in Christian school, things would be so much better!
Eetan
5mo ago
Moldbug's usual principle is: "Might makes right, the strong should do what they can and the weak must suffer what they must."
For some reasons, his application of this principle on the Middle East problem always is: "Palestine is lost cause, Palestinian resistance against Israel is futile, Palestinians should give up and leave the country", never "Israel is lost cause, Israeli resistance against Arab and Muslim world is futile, Israelis should give up and leave the Middle East for good."
Eetan
5mo ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Christianity is at least as unbacked by evidence and reason as transgender ideology. Believing that a certain man 2000 years ago was the son of god and rose from the dead is at least as unbacked by evidence and reason as believing that a man can become a woman by calling himself a woman and doing surgeries.
In theory yes, in practice no. Your parents dragging you as child to church for dunking in cold water or to gender clinic for gender affirming treatment is one big difference.
But many people here on The Motte give Christianity a pass because it's really old and really popular and so it seems "normal", because they like its cultural/political connotations, and probably in some cases because they were raised Christian.
Because Christianity is no big issue here, because only arguments for Christianity usually presented here are: "it is ancient" "it is our tradition" "churches are beautiful" "church music is inspiring" "if you are lonely, you will find friends in church" "you must believe in something, why not Jesus" etc...
If poster, or group of posters tried to preach, evangelize and missionize here in noughties hardcore style, if they came and argued for literal existence of God, literal truth of the Bible and literal bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, they would not be given any "pass", they would face strong opposition and generated lots of interesting discussions full of heat and light. Anyone who does not remember the great Atheist-Christian war of the noughties, missed internet at its best.
Eetan
5mo ago
At any rate, I've never heard of this woman, even if I am familiar with the usual thought-leaders in the early 2000s New Atheism movement, even if that was before my time really. I don't mourn it, it managed to do its job before it died, or was subsumed into proto-Wokism as Scott suggests.
If you missed the Great Atheist-Christian War of the noughties, you missed the peak of the internet. All went downhill since then.
And if you were there, you would know that the "proto-woke" side was the creationist intelligent design one.
At least the better part of them - while the dumb ones tried to scientifically prove that six day creation and Noah flood were literally real, the smarter were loud antiracists and antifascists who were roaring how Darwin was racist colonialist genocidist and how "Darwinism" is source of all evil in modern history.
You got things like From Darwin to Hitler, Darwin's Plantation: Evolution's Racist Roots or even this.
STALIN'S FAITH--WHAT WAS IT?
Often an individual's faith is firmly attached to a book of some kind. Muslims have the Koran; Hindus, their Veda; and Christians, the Bible. Writings of Confucius, Buddha, and indeed, Mao Tse-Tung, serve similar purposes for other groups. In Stalin's case, the writings of Marx, Engels, and Lenin incited him, but to stop here would be premature. There is one man-book amalgam which may have been even more determinative for Stalin, especially during his youthful, impressionable years.
The man was Charles Darwin.
The book--his The Origin of Species.
To document this, appeal is made first to a book published in Moscow entitled, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin. It was written during Stalin's "glory," and was designed to set him in a positive light. Note in the selection cited, that faith in Darwin and his "book" contrasts markedly with faith in a supreme being:
At a very early age, while still a pupil in the ecclesiastical school, Comrade Stalin developed a critical mind and revolutionary sentiments. He began to read Darwin and became an atheist.
G. Glurdjidze, a boyhood friend of Stalin's, relates:
"I began to speak of God, Joseph heard me out, and after a moment's silence, said: "'You know, they are fooling us, there is no God. . . .' "I was astonished at these words, I had never heard anything like it before. "'How can you say such things, Soso?' I exclaimed. "'I'll lend you a book to read; it will show you that the world and all living things are quite different from what you imagine, and all this talk about God is sheer nonsense,' Joseph said. "'What book is that?' I enquired. "'Darwin. You must read it,' Joseph impressed on me"
They failed to cancel Darwin and all of his work, but not for the lack of trying.
Eetan
7mo ago
Why should we take a step back to religious social technology? Well, I think we’re in a social dark ages. Our attention is consistently brought down to matters of consumerism and social strife. The idea of genuinely talking about and encouraging virtue among peers is Don Quixote levels of comical.
The idea of "encouraging virtue among peers" is stronger than ever, but for different definition of "virtue". People are very strongly encouraged and pushed every day to be more woke, more anti-racist, more anti-Trumpist, more active LGBTQ+ ally, more climate activist (insert another current week-month-year causes).
Yes, you would say that Christianity was not replaced with scientific reason and logic, but another religion, much more crazy and insane.
This is not good argument for Christianity - if it was so easily defeated and supplanted by something as absurd as bouquet of modern woke causes, then it was no barrier and no protection at all.
Eetan
7mo ago
The assertions "All Cops Are Bastards" and "Some Cops Are Bastards" are vastly different.
Yes, evil bastard cops and good noble cops are very different. The bastard cops are doing their bastardly deeds, and the good cops look the other way and close ranks to defend their brothers at any cost. Such great difference.
Eetan
11mo ago
Again, do you think that White Christian White House staffers would defend your interests and would see you as their "ally"?
Eetan
7mo ago
Yes, ancient history was full of violence (just like modern history), but we (we non psychopaths) admire other ancient achievements.
There is difference between someone who, when thinking about Roman empire, thinks "The Romans built roads, bridges and aqueducts that lasted for millenia, they created unparallelled law, literature, art and architecture, they were so cool!" and someone who thinks "The Romans razed and burned cities so thoroughly that no trace remained, they perfected the art of torture, they decorated their roads with lines of crosses, they fed people to the beasts for fun, they were so cool!"
The sheer scale of the IE conquests is what makes it stand out especially.
Spread of black plague was even wider and faster. Do you too find Yersinia pestis "inspiring"?
Eetan
7mo ago
In contrast, the Sardinians provide insight into the pre-Bronze Age farmer populations, as:
Sardinia appears to harbor the highest amounts of Neolithic farmer ancestry and very little of the pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer or Bronze Age pastoralists ancestries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_from_Sardinia
Not bad achievements for small island, sparsely populated and desperately poor for all of recorded history. Continent of such people had no need to be "liberated" and "uplifted" by invasion of Ted Bundys and Jeffrey Dahmers.
Eetan
11mo ago
All of this puts the non-Jewish White percent at 28.5%, counting the Turkish and Arab names as White (and ignoring the probably ~2% Native American that Joe slipped in there). And so, among White House staffers, Whites are quite under-represented and Jews are enormously over-represented.
This is problematic
Why?
Do you feel "represented" by White Christian White House staffers?
Do you feel that Biden's WCWHS are "your people", do you think that they see you as "one of them", do you think that they are protecting your interests, do you think that they look at you with more kindness and gentleness than their Jewish colleagues?
Eetan
3mo ago
90 billion Biden and Obama sent to Iran
Biden’s $90 Billion Bailout to Tehran
The JCPOA infused Iran with cash. Right before the United States reimposed sanctions in 2018, Iran’s central bank controlled more than $120 billion in foreign exchange reserves. U.S. sanctions locked tens of those billions away in escrow accounts, and financial pressure forced Iran to draw down the accounts that remained open. U.S. sanctions locked tens of those billions away in escrow accounts, and financial pressure forced Iran to draw down the accounts that remained open. After only two years of the maximum pressure campaign, Iran was down to a meager $4 billion in reserves. Meanwhile, U.S. energy sanctions cut Iran’s oil exports by more than 2 million barrels per day, depriving the regime of $70 billion that typically funds its budget.
If I steal your money and then give you some back, I am sure you will be thankful for such generous handout.
Eetan
3mo ago
What's wrong with giving creationists more power?
That we are in 2024, not 2004 and this Dubya era cause of teaching creation science/intelligent design is as defeated as any political cause can be? Read wish lists of most radical conservative wishful thinking, you will not find there any notice of this thing.
And as for BAP - he is troll and shitposter, who does not have any actual political demands and proposals here and now (what could these be? compulsory fitness training to make the nation more muscular? this would be massively unpopular, most of all among the conservative base).
Real reason why even moderate centrist people who hate wokeness and DSA types and who would appreciate less immigrants and more law and order balk at voting R is, outside of raw classist disgust of rednecks and their unsightly pickup trucks, in most of the cases, abortion. They fear giving right-to-lifers-from-conception even morsel of more power.
Eetan
7mo ago
I've heard proposals like yours before, that you can "go through the motions" of being religious because it's good for you. I've even seen Christians argue that you should go to church and do that, even if you don't really believe, because it will lead you to belief. I don't see it. I can't make myself believe something I don't, and LARPing as a religious believer just seems like a waste of time to me.
It is sign that Great Atheist War of the noughties is over, sign of complete intellectual defeat of Christianity.
If you remember, you would remember that Christians emboldened by Bush victory went to evangelical offensive, with lots of arguments about first cause, fine tuning of the universe, intelligent design, irreducible complexity, literal truth of the Bible, literal resurrection of Jesus etc...
Since all these arguments were demolished by reason and logic, no one talks about these things any more. This greatest internet flame war in history is over.
Now it is "Just believe, bro. Just go to church."
Online Christian triumphalist message is not anymore "We will convert you" but "We will outbreed you", admitting that Christian arguments will fail to persuade any grown up person and work only on captive audience of their children.
How this has typically worked throughout history is that the lay people do believe unironically, and a more intellectually refined elite theologize quite a bit amongst themselves, come up with rationalizations, and basically act out a Noble Lie.
Throughout history, religion worked that lay people followed the rituals of their village, knew nothing about high theological claims of their religion and cared even less. The tiny intellectually refined elite was actually reading their holy books and trying to make sense of them.
Eetan
9mo ago
Why do this at all? The most powerful people I know. The smartest, the most creative and most successful dont struggle with the kind of ideas we discuss on the motte.
Yes, powerful and succesful people are busy pursuing power and success 24/7/365 and have no time for any knowledge or ideas.
These things are for peasants. If CEO, billionaire or president finds he needs any ideas, he just tell his assistant to add some to his speech or powerpoint presentation.
Obligatory dead bird unverified anecdote thread.
Of course, the young promising lawyer who has no idea what is atomic bomb and what is communism, has already more power and success that 90% of this forum.
Eetan
9mo ago
Actually the scary part is that the LGBT movement has more or less flipped the stranger danger on its head.
Not the only thing that was in the current year flipped without anyone caring and even noticing.
Even more jarring is transformation of people who were preaching "violence bad! guns bad! self defense bad! human life sacred under any circumstances!" into avid flag waving patriots "glory to ukraine! glory to heroes! death to orcs! no surrender, no step back! throw the moskal to the shark!", without even bothering to justify this abrupt change of their principles.
(yes I know there were never any "principles" involved, but it is still jarring)
Eetan
4mo ago
Imagine if 20-30% of Americans were french people explicitly voting with the goal of making things worse for the English?
I am sure that if you asked the French, they would tell you with the same sincerity that the English are keeping them down and do not let them breathe.
This was common discourse during the end times of Soviet Union too. The Russians complained that they are feeding the non-Russians, the non-Russians cried that the Russians are sucking their blood. All were persuaded that if only they became "independent", all their problems would be solved and they would live like in Hollywood movie.
As history shows, things happened otherwise.
Living in this country has made me incredible sympathetic to everygroup that ever concluded ethnic cleansing or ethno-nationalism was the only option
Go ahead, play Yugoslavian games and win Yugoslavian prizes. The world can always enjoy some more exciting war footage and cool atrocity videos.
Eetan
4mo ago
Ethnic Expulsions would be the best thing for birth rates.
This is the theory. Now, let us look at the example of countries that recently tried this recipe for growth.
Bosnia And Herzegovina Birth Rate
Civil war, ethnic cleansing and atrocities galore, but any rebound and growth is not evident.
Eetan
6mo ago
Is pope Francis attempting to bring in gay marriage by the back door?
Welcome to absolute power unaccountable and unanswerable to anyone (on Earth at least).
The pope can do whatever he wants, and no one can do anything about it. There is no recall, no vote of no confidence, no impeachment. The pope can make any rules he wants or freely disregard his own rules with impunity, and you can just watch helplessly. Or leave and start your own church.
Well, legally at least, the popes were in the past replaced by extra legal means, but this couldn't happen in our modern age.
Eetan
9mo ago
Charity is not about "helping your fellow man", if this was the case someone would notice it is ineffective for this purpose at best, counterproductive at worst, it would not take thousands of years to invent idea of effective altruism. It was always about impressing your fellow rich and showing how compassionate you are.
"Wealth redistribution" is not about helping your fellow man either, it is about avoiding situation where desperate starving masses have nothing to lose than their chains, it is investment in keeping your head affixed to your shoulder. Feudals like Bismarck, who always held longer term view than capitalists could understand it.
It is no accident that after some events that happened in 1917 labor regulations and social policies grew all around the world, that things like eight hour working day that were long said to be impossible suddely became possible. All the charity in the world somehow failed to provide it before.
https://twitter.com/RasmussenMagnus/status/1601925288736313344
We find that measures of revolutionary fear, the radicalization of worker parties and the formation of worker and soldier councils, substantially drove social policy expansion around the world. Importantly, the shock persists until today (even if its importance has sig. subsided)
https://www.cambridge.org/core/elements/abs/reforming-to-survive/8513341F3D95D3392917AFC4CC211A31
This Element details how elites provide policy concessions when they face credible threats of revolution. Specifically, the authors discuss how the Bolshevik Revolution of 1917 and the subsequent formation of Comintern enhanced elites' perceptions of revolutionary threat by affecting the capacity and motivation of labor movements as well as the elites' interpretation of information signals. These developments incentivized elites to provide policy concessions to urban workers, notably reduced working hours and expanded social transfer programs.
The authors assess their argument by using original qualitative and quantitative data. First, they document changes in perceptions of revolutionary threat and strategic policy concessions in early inter-war Norway by using archival and other sources. Second, they code, for example, representatives at the 1919 Comintern meeting to proxy for credibility of domestic revolutionary threat in cross-national analysis. States facing greater threats expanded various social policies to a larger extent than other countries, and some of these differences persisted for decades.
Moldgub:
and then proceeds with the usual long and convoluted verbal diarrhea. As if Moldbug cared, as is Moldbug had some feelings about current happenings in the land of Canaan. I do not remember him commenting at length about recent events in, for example, Ethiopia, Sudan, Sahel or Myanmar, formerly Burma.
Why is Moldbug allowed to have feelings while we should stay completely calm and disinterested?
Is it because some of Moldbug's ancestors came from this place and some relatives of his do live there now? If this should be the standard, then only people with Eastern Slavic descent should be allowed to care about Ukraine. Somehow, Moldbug despite his lack of Slavic blood, is very interested in this place and writes about it at length.
Is is because Moldbug disregards his own law or is it because there is no law except "Moldbug does what Moldbug wants?"
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