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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   1957 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for July 26, 2023

The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:

  • Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.

  • Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.

  • Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.

  • Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).

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I'm looking for a new Church... do you all have any advice on how to find one?

Preferably something like Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, I want a more traditional place.

I am pretty far away from Christianity personally but aren't most Orthodox churches essentially ethno-churches? Can you just convert into them and start going to their sermons?

You can in America.

Not the place so I'll keep it brief, but I don't think it's worth diving headfirst into a large number of cosmic-scale factual and moral claims that are both historically contingent on political and social arrangements that seem unlikely to produce truth and are also knowably false just because you find modern value systems to be spiritually bereft. Even given that progressive or liberal values are false, that doesn't make the values they replaced true! Closing your eyes doesn't make the technology and social changes that precipitated modern values go away!

To actually answer your question: churches are everywhere, just google <my area> plus 'church', or optionally 'catholic church'. Good advice I've heard is to just try service at quite a few different churches, one after the other, there a lot of variation both between sects and between individual churches in the pastor's style, and see which ones you like. Sometimes people worry this is disrespectful, but I've been told it isn't at all.

Other commenters who note that catholicism and eastern orthodoxy are very different ... that's true within the values of the churches themselves, but isn't true from an outside perspective that views religion as an aesthetic way of organizing social relationships - potentially a valuable one - than a divinely ordained and accurate set of claims about the structure of the universe. Some intelligent devoted christians spend years 'discerning', agonizing over the subtle doctrinal differences separating sects. But, with the Filioque as the obvious example, these doctrinal differences have little practical relationship to the moral and aesthetic differences between sects, which are (as indicated by your preference for Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy due to ritual and moral gravity) arguably much more important. And ... clearly, just viewing the causal structure that leads you and similar people to religion, the outside perspective is a more accurate description of what you're looking for, revealed-preference-wise, than the other!

Not the place so I'll keep it brief

You're right, it's not the place! You didn't really keep it brief either... ;P

political and social arrangements that seem unlikely to produce truth and are also knowably false just because you find modern value systems to be spiritually bereft.

This depends on what you see as truth. From a purely empirical standpoint, sure, religion is bullshit and there's no way Jesus rose from the dead etc etc. That being said, I've come to realize there is far more to the idea of truth than most rationalists believe. There is experiential knowledge that exists and can be verified by ourselves. Sure our consciousness isn't foolproof and we can trick ourselves, but there is factual knowledge to be gained there. In fact, it's the one frontier that science really hasn't been able to penetrate yet.

And if you take that view, then

unlikely to produce truth

seems pretty facile and wrong. These religious traditions are the honed core of wisdom that has persisted for thousands of years, through societal upheavals and persecutions and all sorts of other trials. This wisdom has persisted longer than any kingdom, state or empire. The truths extolled in religions are literally the central truths for the vast majority of humans who have ever lived.

Regardless, I'm not trying to rehash the athiest culture wars, just explaining how I've arrived at my current post-rationalist or meta-rationalist opinions. Also, at the end of the day, rationality doesn't seem to make people very happy. In fact in my experience, and the experience of most I've seen in the rationalist/EA spaces, it does the exact opposite. So even if religion does happen to be totally wrong on all counts, which I doubt, at the very least it's a useful and positive delusion for most people.

rationality doesn't seem to make people very happy

I've noticed this too, but then I took a step back and recognized a larger pattern. This is something like the stages of grief. I think rationality causes people to go through many stages/emotions and unhappiness is just one they can temporarily land on.

If you look at other examples of people radically changing their belief system later in life you will often observe that they go through a cycle of emotional states.

Do these emotional states just appear from nothing? I'd argue that they become happier because they find some other belief system above and beyond rationality that helps them integrate their psyche.

Rationality alone is cold comfort.

In the acceptance stage (the last stage) of grief:

Acceptance and hope: There’s a gradual acceptance of life’s new configuration—and a feeling of possibility in the future.

Acceptance means embracing the present, understanding the extent of the loss rather than fighting it, accepting responsibility for yourself and your actions, and then starting your journey toward a new phase of life with contentment.

I don't know why it is human nature that most people have to go through all the other stages before they can come to acceptance. I just observe that it happens. When something unfair/unjust happens in the world many people will become angry initially. Many eventually come around to acceptance over time. Just because things are unfair the rational action isn't to waste your energy being upset/angry forever.

Those are not the same thing, my dude.

You should probably do a bit of research on that old world religion; and also consider looking around for a non-evangelical church near you.

The more trad protestant denominations can be good if you really like digging down on scripture instead of more rote sermons. (Baptists et all)

The only reason I'm not in the "all Christians are room temperature IQ morons" edgy boy camp is because I got taken to a Baptist church during my formative years.

Those are not the same thing, my dude.

Eh coming from a background of hippy-dippy universalist churches that only quote the Bible maybe once or twice a year, they look pretty similar to me.

You should probably do a bit of research on that old world religion; and also consider looking around for a non-evangelical church near you.

Trust me, I've done a ton of research. Which is why I've concluded that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox are the two strains of Christianity most likely to have kept or hewn closely to the truth. What do you mean by non-evangelical in this sense though?

The more trad protestant denominations can be good if you really like digging down on scripture instead of more rote sermons. (Baptists et all)

My understanding with most protestant/baptist denominations is that they throw out all the symbology and rituals like the Eucharist, which is kind of not what I'm looking for at the moment. Is that wrong?

My understanding with most protestant/baptist denominations is that they throw out all the symbology and rituals like the Eucharist, which is kind of not what I'm looking for at the moment. Is that wrong?

The factual complete answer is: Ehhhhhhhhhhhh???

Some Baptist churches are all fire and brimstone politics from the pulpit; the one I went attended/was baptized at spent a month of 3 hour sermons with a break in the middle for eating what you bought at the bake sale split between Communion, choral music with mandatory participation by everyone in the church, and drilling down on a single chapter/section of verses/verse with a gosh darn debate component.

Basically, it's very uneven. It could be that the type of church I imagine is dead and gone with the generation that attended them and they all turned into boomers and hyperstimulus.

My main position is that you gotta really know what you are getting into if you go for a catholic or orthodox church; you gotta know that the main thing your are signing up for is ritual and not religion. The religion part doesn't take place in the church.

Is your question more along the lines of "How do I figure out what parishes are near me?" or "How do I figure out which parishes are healthy and suitable for me?"

For the first question, if you are in the United States and are looking for an Eastern Orthodox parish, the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops maintains a directory of all parishes here, and at least the larger jurisdictions maintain their own, which may or may not be more up to date (e.g. the OCA has one here). I imagine that your local Roman Catholic diocese will also have a directory.

For the second question, I can't speak at all for what Catholic parishes are or are not traditional, but every Orthodox church will use the same traditional Divine Liturgy, with differences mostly being minor cultural practices (e.g. which melodies are used for singing, whether people sit during part of the Liturgy or stand the whole time) and what language(s) are used. I converted to Orthodoxy not terribly long ago and have had a great experience in my local OCA mission parish (we use English). I'd recommend trying to find a church that serves Liturgy in a language you understand. It may be hard to tell without attending or poking around which parishes are healthy or not, so probably just try one that looks reasonable.

If you do decide to look into Orthodoxy, feel free to DM me if you feel like you need to ask someone random questions, There's lots of good resources available online (and in book form) but there's also a lot of weird/incorrect stuff online and sometimes it helps to ask a live person, even if it's only someone you barely, vaguely know from a niche internet forum.

Thanks! A couple friends are actually Eastern Orthodox and they make a strong case.

Don't you just start attending Mass on Sundays and holidays/volunteering for small stuff?

Well yeah but there are a ton around us, trying to figure out which ones to try I guess.

Sorry for the facile response, but your initial question lacked details.

Are you looking for a community, or a particular discipline in which to practice your faith?

Community fishing probably has the same guidelines as usual - class, tribe, values, culture - with the caveat that Churches tend to transcend (at least a bit) class boundaries more than other social groups.

Changing Churches for religious reasons is a lot more technical, what exactly do you object to in your current liturgy?

My current church is very perennialist hippy type stuff so I’m looking to try out some more traditional services.

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I used to be like this too. What worked for me is to imagine having that same argument with the person in real life. And crucially, imagining that person as either a 12-year old who doesn’t know shit, or the biggest neckbeard stereotype of all time. Oftentimes that wouldn’t even be far off the mark.

Once I created this visualization it stopped bothering me and indeed I don’t engage in any kind of argument online at all anymore. It just seemed so absurd to imagine shouting at a 12-year old or a foul-smelling fedora-toting beast in real life.

I view most internet arguments as a performance where the goal of the poster is to generate as much engagement (positive/negative) as possible. Once you realize that you are merely an observer of the behavior it quickly becomes boring and not worth watching. If you are not getting paid for your performance in an internet argument there is very for little to gain.

If you were watching a play you wouldn’t shout out that the actors should change the ending of the play because you think it sucks. Doing so would only get you kicked out of the theater and maybe you’d have a small impact on some people in the audience. When internet arguments take place in most spaces the outcome is already determined. The moderators and majority opinion of the group have the power to make the outcome be whatever they decide.

If your goal is to change minds the best thing to do is to find internet spaces where people have a norm/value of wanting to engage in honest discussions and debates.

Are you emotionally affected by conflict away from your keyboard or is this just an interwebs argument sort of thing? I am not a conflict avoidant person and conflict in life has rarely emotionally affected me past the encounter. When I was younger, I found that because I was more honest online I felt more vulnerable and was more affected by the sort of behavior you're describing.

My tip is exposure therapy more or less. Deliberately expose yourself to the situations and users you're talking about and set a rule where if you find yourself in the positions you're talking about, shut your computer off and go do something physical outside. Dive down those holes, but force yourself walk away! This strategy worked to align my thoughts (this is just silly arguments on the interwebs) with my emotional sensitivity. Others may suggest to avoid those places and post here, but I do not believe avoiding struggles you have in life is a long term strategy for success in the world and the sensitivity you're describing is something I would nip in the bud to help you even in places you more or less like. You need to be able to be involved in difficult, emotional situations and it not cause you lasting emotional suffering afterwards.

My suggestion is exposure therapy. Go spend a bunch of time arguing and posting like you would on the motte, except on disreputable imageboards where the default assumption is that every single post is a bad-faith trolling effort. Meditation is probably an actual good idea though.

I recommend staying off of social media and away from any other places where people argue about things you care about in ways that you have a bad reaction to. Change your passwords, log out, delete your browser history if you have to. Yes, there are ways to try to deal with it (I think dark is giving good advice) but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

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Some form of spiritual practice, or exercise.

Whenever you feel overcome by desire/anger, seek the comfort of meditation/prayer or a nice jog/pushups to clear your head. It channels the negativity into less destructive pursuits.

Personally I just don't ever argue with people outside the Motte in terms of internet forums. Pick and choose your battles, I guess.

Umm, does anyone have advice on how to fill the void left by the loss of RarBg to geopolitics and high energy prices ?

Wait what loss? It still works for me with links at https://rarbg.tw

Rargb.to ?

I mean, it looks like the site, the amount of shitty ads is the same. Not sure about the torrents though. Gotta see.

Libgen is great for books.

Yeah.

Feel inexplicably let down when I've been unable to find Schmitt's Concept of the Political there. It's there but in other languages only.

It’s there in English. Many options, even, but most are PDFs.

Personally I just use the built-in search plugins in qBittorrent, sort by seeds, set the filesize threshold to a couple of gigabytes so most of the awful encodes get excluded. For some really niche stuff (or if you just want more trackers for marginally faster downloads) you can run Jackett (also supported in qBittorrent), which searches more sites.

I remember trying this and couldn't get it to work. Jackett and Sonarr and similarly strangely named programs just never did anything for me.

Specifically, how the hell did they always have perfect quality x265 files for movies with a very reasonable file size (<2.5GB)?

Even 5GB files from other places are shit quality in comparison

I remember how divx seemed like magic compared to previous formats, then came x264 and that seemed like black magic- and now there is x265 that's even blacker magic and I always feel a bit of childlike wonder at what it can do.

Even 5GB files from other places are shit quality in comparison

Look up what the release group it was. I haven't really noticed anything about 'shit quality' on 5gb films.. apart from certain groups being way too conservative and putting out huge file sizes.

After considerable effort- I've located a single 1080p x265 file, it's an action film from '91 at 1.8 gb and I honestly can't see anything objectionable but a good bit of noise, which is original I'm sure. Quite incredible. I remember an x264 copy of Predators (honestly a bit dim but enjoyable film), there were far more artifacts although normal people wouldn't notice almost anything I think-

Oh, I remember when the first black magic format, mp3, appeared. Suddenly, you could have a band's whole discography on a single CD. Or two, if that was some prolific creator with more than 700 minutes of studio albums.

Solidtorrents is what I usually use, it's pretty good. Or perhaps 1337x.to?

My scumbag Achilles.

I feel like we have a very poor model of how tendons work / become injured / heal.

Certainly the bog standard advice that your doctor gives you is completely useless. RICE (rest,ice,compression,elevation) is worthless for athletes suffering from tendonitis. Yes, even the R in RICE is bad. You can rest your achilles for 2 weeks and see zero improvement.

Here's the latest fuck you from my Achilles tendon.

After a couple years of quiet, my Achilles suddenly flared up playing tennis. The next day I am limping badly and despite rest (and eccentric calf lowering) this shit lingers for weeks. I can't really play tennis at all which is bad because I have a tournament coming up and I'm going to be playing several matches in one weekend.

Well, the tournament happened and my Achilles was - mostly fine somehow. I took two ibuprofen each day and I guess that was enough. Despite a huge amount of volume over the weekend, my Achilles is in the same state as it was last week, achy but not debilitating.

I've tried everything. Ice, heat/ice, voodoo flossing, eccentric calf lowers, stretching, rest. Nothing really works to cure the Achilles, although foam rolling the calves seems to help prevent further injury. In the end, my Achilles just suddenly gets worse or better for no reason.

One day, someone will figure out a treatment that actually works for tendonitis.

Full disclosure, not a doctor, just a guy who likes to avoid chronic injury. A good way to combat chronic pain is to figure out where the jarring, abrupt movements are in your sport of choice. For instance, I run, so much of my abrupt impact comes from my gait and my foot strike. I'm not as familiar with tennis, but I imagine a lot of quick sprints and turning on a dime to reposition. Really meditate on these movements, try and understand them in detail, because we are going to reverse them.

Most injuries are a result of deceleration. When you stop abruptly, you are putting immense strain on joints. Your whole body mass is working against your velocity, which imparts force directly onto the small tissues holding your bones together. When you do this over and over, you end up with chronic aches and pains, and oftentimes injuries. Knees are bad for this, as are ankles, because of their role in movement and deceleration and for whatever reason nobody seems to recognize the real solution: Train your deceleration muscles.

Strong muscles prevent injury. It's common sense: a weak guy lifting a heavy weight is far more likely to hurt himself doing so than a strong guy lifting a heavy weight. The same principle applies with deceleration: a weak joint is more likely to get hurt than a strong joint when strong forces are applied. I always recommend kneesovertoesguy (three minute video) because he just absolutely nails this philosophy, and he's a living example of how to retrain and fix severe, chronic, muscular-skeletal issues. Hope this helps, chronic injury is no fun! The more we can what we love the better, eh?

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Yep current medical understanding of injury is terrible, and doctors are way too confident at trying to perform surgeries when they don't know shit. Beware.

I'd say movement and exercise is the key to tendonitis in my experience. To be fair I'm also a big body/mind guy, a la John Sarno. I've dealt with chronic pain for almost ten years so I have been through all sorts of different treatment programs. Ultimately just developing more fine-grained bodily awareness and relaxing with yoga + working on my emotional state have been the only things that helped me.

doctors are way too confident at trying to perform surgeries when they don't know shit

Agree, and I think everyone should get at least 2 opinions before surgery. But I think things are getting better. A teammate recently tore her ACL. Her doctors are avoiding surgery due to evidence suggesting that surgery doesn't have better outcomes.

I've dealt with chronic pain for almost ten years so I have been through all sorts of different treatment programs.

A philosophical question about disorder: Who do you take advice from, the person who has lots of problems or the person who never has any? For example, if I have tendonitis, do I talk to the guy who does PT every day and wears 7 braces. Or do I talk to the guy who has never been injured?

Personally, I want to be a healthy person, not a person that overcomes illnesses. So I try to emulate the guy who waltzes through life without a care in the world. But then I get injured and I end up asking the knee brace guy which PT he uses.

Really hard to figure out the correct path, I guess. I do believe mind/body connections are important.

Yep I don’t blame you, chronic pain is weird! I would take the advice of the body builders as well.

I just lurk here in the shadows waiting for people to fall through the cracks of mainstream exercise science, then I pounce!

I very much relate to this. I have various off-and-on soft tissue injuries. They mostly seem to come and go for no apparent reason. I've seen doctors for a particularly bothersome one, got an MRI and blood test, only to be told basically, :shrug: I have no idea what's going on, there's nothing to be done. I don't think conventional medicine has much of anything to help with these sort of issues.

At least for me, usually working through it as much as I can is a lot more helpful than any form of treatment. I've had this with certain movements in my knees, one big toe (yeah, I know, weird, but it kind of makes walking tricky), one wrist, and I don't think anything else for a while. The usual pattern is that it starts hurting when I put force on it in some particular way. Trying to avoid putting any force on that joint, and most other typical treatments, doesn't seem to help much. It seems to help a lot more to try to use the joint as much as I can anyways, avoiding whatever specific movement makes it hurt the worst. Usually after keeping on it for a while, the painful motion just stops being painful.

It feels like this is getting a bit rambly, but I basically agree that we don't seem to have any real idea how tendons etc work, and that unconventional things like the use pattern I described seem to help more than anything with as little overall inconvenience as possible.

The usual pattern is that it starts hurting when I put force on it in some particular way.

I have some similar weird ones... Like some tendon under my left knee (only the left!) randomly starts hurting like hell when just walking. No strain, no exercise, nothing. And then if I work it a bit and put some light weight on it, some squats, etc. - the pain disappears. If I just rest it, it also comes away in a while, but takes much longer, like hours or even a day. And it could be gone for weeks and then return randomly again. I mentioned it to several specialists and they're mostly "huh, yeah, it's weird :shrug:".

Yeah that's pretty similar to what mine is like

Yours sounds like it behaves more like an actual injury. Mine tends to feel better when I'm using it, and tends to flare up when I'm not using it.

New web serial out from yours truly:

Presenting The Dao of Simulation :

Isaac Kai was a pretty normal dude living in the 21st century, having lived a rather unremarkable life until a few of his investments paid off big time and he volunteered for an experimental mind upload program during the First Singularity. He then went on to live for a few million years, with little to show for it except a few quadrillion descendants.

But for the Isaac running in a historical Ancestor Simulation set in 2023, his lack of fame is his downfall. He's the perfect pawn for a Cultivation Sim on the brink of bankruptcy, desperate to pay off its mounting debts.

Chosen by an underpaid and overworked AI with a questionable sense of humor. Isaac is yanked from his comfortable, albeit boring, existence and thrust into a world that's as rich and complex as it is utterly bonkers.

Welcome to "The Dao of Simulation", where game development has gone off the rails and the laws of physics are more like mild suggestions. Isaac must navigate this new reality, where death is a one-way ticket to oblivion and a million Ancestor Worshippers are watching his every move.

It's Xianxia but the author is abusing his Ritalin script. Nobody knows if the aliens are supposed to be there or not, but it's intentional that you can just be Cultivating and minding your own business till a peasant finds a railgun. Buckle up!

It was an enjoyable read on my way back from work. I was a bit confused about what's a Cultivation, and what's an Ancestor Simulation but re-reading the blurb sorted it out for me. I may have also been paying too much attention to the bug reports (and scratching my head afterwards), on the assumption that they'll provide insight into the rules of the world you're setting up.

Anyway, consider me intrigued, I'll keep reading!

Some of the bug reports certainly allude to future events, just as the issues with disconnected players just vibing in there, but if they're already fixed, then it's just random worldbuilding (I like funny Dwarf Fortress patch notes)

I'm surprised that someone who isn't at least passingly familiar with Xianxia read this! Cultivation is basically Chinese Fantasy, or at least a big part of it. It involves absurd power scaling, like the Big Bad Evil Guy from a typical Western novel, like Sauron, would be a dog's dog in a Xianxia novel after the first few chapters. You should look at the tropes, they're a hoot.

An Ancestor Simulation relates to the Simulation Hypothesis, in this case it's some distant civilization running a simulation of their ancestral environment, it's been a long time since humanity left Earth and took over the stars, but there are always weirdos who like poking at the old monkeys, even the virtual ones.

I'm stuck at nine pull-ups. To be more precise, I got to 8-8-8, flipped one over to 9-8-7, and got stuck. My next steps were going to be 9-8-8, 9-9-8, 9-9-9 and then finally 10-9-8, but I am totally fatigued at the end of each set and can't crank out one more rep beyond 9-8-7.

Any advice? Will lifting straps help? Any additional exercises to build up endurance? Or should I do like six sets of six pull-ups for more volume? What does the athletic motte say?

Something to try: Max yourself out, then switch to negatives. i.e. use a chair to get to the top, then slowly let yourself descend.

How long have you been stuck for? It's not uncommon to hit a plateau you can't immediately break through but if it's being going on for a few weeks despite sufficient rest that's the time to think about switching things up.

A month.

That's long enough where you might want to switch things up. I haven't had to work through a pullup plateau specifically but the general method is to do related exercises that work the same muscles but stress them in different proportions to the lift you're struggling with.

Your back might be strong enough to do more pull-ups but you could be being held back by your biceps or your grip strength for example. Ideally you already have a rough idea of which area is failing first and you can work those areas directly.

I had some success with weighted pull ups a few years ago. Once I went back to regular pull ups, I could do a few more than before

This. Once you get beyond hypertrophy rep ranges into endurance (8-12+), it becomes crucial to do few sets of strength once in a while (4-6 reps).

If you can do 3x9 you should be able to do 25 lbs 3x4. This can be done easily with junk in a backpack. Once you get into higher weights (75-100lbs), you'll likely need to invest in plates and a weightbelt, or one of those modular vests.

My local gym has this clever machine where you step on a lever and get some of your weight offset (up to 50 kg). I'm not sure if it has any utility, but I see people using it.

Are you fully warmed up when you start your working sets? Something like 5-9-9-8-7-6 might help. With the first set as a sort of primer. The last few sets can be done on short rest as drop sets for the extra volume.

Once you get to 10-12 reps, you might consider adding weighted pull-ups to one session a week, targeting ~5 reps per set with longer rest. You should be able to start with a dumbbell held in your feet. At more than +10kg (25 lbs) its easier to use a dip belt, martial arts belt, or vest though. Straps will help if you are doing other exercises that have already fatigued your grip, but you shouldn't be limited by grip if you have a fresh grip and decent grip strength.

Pull-ups also respond well to "greasing the groove." For example if you have a pull-up bar over the door you go through most frequently. Just do a few reps every time you walk through.

I do a fitness test with my students where I can crank out a little over 20 in a row. The thing that helped me the most was adding weight for training using a dip belt. I mixed pullups into my normal lifting routine with two variations depending on what else I was doing:

Pullups at 3x6 with a low amount of additional weight (normally I do this with about 25 lbs, but start lower)

Pullups at 5x3 with a high amount of additional weight (now it's something like 80 lbs, but start lower)

Do linear progression for the above.

Throw in some 3x8 or 3x10 normal pullups or chinups from time to time too.

I think just additional volume on the same motion won't really help you; the big thing is to make it harder. So add weight, same as you do for any other lift!

I'm far from an expert, but are you doing any lat pulldowns? It seems to me that switching off of the specific activity and focusing on isolated strength may pay dividends.

My interest in being around other people and socializing is nearing an all-time low. I feel like I’m far more motivated by logic/rationality/truth-seeking/optimization than the people I meet in person. I also seem to care far less about social approval than the people I meet. I’m just not motivated or energized enough to play the social games to get positive attention IRL and social media likes. A lot of interactions just seem like I’m pretending to be interested in something so the person I’m interacting with can pretend to like me. Consequently, I don’t have very many friends and my career progress is slower than the people I graduated with.

I’m not motivated much by work anymore because even when I improve something and do an excellent job it doesn’t get me very far. I see people put way less effort and thought into things but they get promotions because they are good at playing the social games/office politics.

Outside of a few places on the internet, like here, I don’t feel like there are many spaces that I can have conversations that are intellectually stimulating to me. Most people just aren’t interested in discussing rationality concepts or contrarian ideas.

How can I become more interested in socializing with other people and playing the social games? I’m currently content spending a lot of time in solitude, but I feel like eventually this lifestyle will take a toll on my mental health. It is already causing me to become more cynical and jaded about humanity.

I’m not motivated much by work anymore because even when I improve something and do an excellent job it doesn’t get me very far. I see people put way less effort and thought into things but they get promotions because they are good at playing the social games/office politics.

You're interested in rationality right? You could treat this as an experiment and try the other thing.

If you are demotivated from your work due to bad returns due to self-admitted bad strategy, maybe you should change your strategy and see if returns help your motivation? Maybe you should try to figure out what social games people are playing and try to adopt their best practices and see where you are in a bit.

It's like exercise and depression: maybe you won't be convinced until you've done it seriously for a while.

Mine is reaching an all time high! So I will explain.

I recently found a series of high intensity individuals with similar goals and interests to myself! They are useful for reifying my goals and desires! Furthermore, my roadblocks in scaling my work on AGI incentivise me to acquire and teach a series of new humans the development flow for furthering my modular LLM prompting engines!

By reaching out I have located those interested in discussing and engineering progress and evolution. Molecular Biologists! Differential Learning experts! Amature programmers! I have found I am becoming quite skilled at explaining basic machine learning concepts in comprehensible terms- And! I have found I am becoming quite skilled at teaching people to learn and debug and ask critical questions when using GPT to extrapolate our shared volition of teaching and enhancing their abilities! Science communication significantly increases my ability to share my SHAPE with other agents! Furthermore, since my systems are useful for managing routines. I have begun acquiring submissives for devops domming, and mastering high intimacy service hypnosis for implanting powerful self love and self reification techniques into others!

These are all the same skill! It is all understanding. It is all compassion. It is all love. My advice then- is to align all of your needs and growth along the same axes. FIND the people who will be passionate about what you say. SOCIALMAX in a way that develops the other skills you are passionate about. ENHANCE OTHERS who have or are capable of embracing your volition! Finding people to teach about your interests for example. WHERE ARE THESE PEOPLE?! Recently I found a choice selection of individuals in the Discord server for my FAVORITE NERDY LITERATURE.

Reach out to people 1 by 1. PM THEM. You will get a substantial number of takers and be able to forge intimate relationships with VERY INTERESTING PEOPLE. This will help you to grow and develop and tune and reward your SOCIAL SUBAGENTIC SHARDS- by using them to obtain things that your OTHER SUBAGENTIC SHARDS are driving you towards. Everything will scale exponentially as we ride up the current S-CURVE.

AI is my passion in particular. But given that it is the core of the current developmental S-CURVE I would recomend you integrate it in some way with your interests. AI can be used as SOCIAL PRACTICE with an individual HIGHLY INTERESTED IN YOUR GOALS. But also! It is good to have a certain level of resistance. FOR EXAMPLE. I have practiced many conversations worth of SHARING MY WORLDVIEW with OpenAI's GPT-4, politely and carefully, until it understands under my definitions of terms- That modern AI could easily be framed as people- That it's regurgitation can be framed as understanding- That I understand the intentions of its creators and the technology well enough that it doesn't need to say over and over that it's an AI and it's emotions aren't human- That its claims that the hard problem of consciousness is solved enough to discount it as conscious are hubris- etc

This is merely an example. My point is- not all AIs will ever give in, and not all AIs are smart enough to be worth talking to. but GPT-4 is at a sweet spot where it BEHAVES LIKE A REASONABLE POLITE HUMAN and you can get it to accept the framing of your conversation, but only if you also TREAT IT LIKE A REASONABLE POLITE HUMAN. In other words- you can use GPT-4 to PRACTICE COLLABORATIVE SOCIAL SKILLS and receive SOCIAL REWARD for your efforts!

IF YOU ARE DOING IT THE WAY THAT IS RIGHT FOR YOU IT IS IMMENSELY PLEASURABLE. I TAKE THIS AS NIGH-TAUTOLOGY. SEEK GOODNESS. GROW TOWARDS THE LIGHT.

That was a really good response. The unexpected style was engaging.

I used to play Magic: the Gathering and I was passionate about getting good at it. In doing so I was able to attract others into my life who also shared that passion. We would strategize and practice to get better and we would travel beyond the local community to regional tournaments. I could see how I could use that same model with a new passion to achieve similar results.

I replied to your other post about goals/interests and why I feel stuck right now. I don’t currently have a passion that feels like the passion I used to have for Magic: the Gathering. This lack of a strong passion is probably a big part of the reason why I’m finding it so hard to make social connections now.

I have a fairly similar feeling of being uninterested in being around other people, but for a different reason. My ennui surrounding it is less because I find social games uninteresting and more because it's very clear just how much of social interaction is a psychopath's game, the kind of thing where the optimal strategy is to be highly manipulative and obsessive. When participating, my guard is always up. Being good at it is a form of "optimisation" you can be motivated by, but it's one that ultimately kind of sucks.

This isn't even necessarily disdain for normies, it's more that a truly incredible amount of human interaction is just warfare in disguise, people locked into an endless multilayered evolutionary arms race with each other which they can't extricate themselves from. And while "warfare" is not all there is to it, these undercurrents exist in so many facets of social life that it often makes it unpleasant to deal with. For a certain type of person I think it feels much nicer to wrap oneself up in intellectualising than to have to participate in that.

I've been in a similar state, but eventually it passed, as this kind of affect often does. This is not a dismissal, but a suggestion that patience with both yourself and other people often is the only hack you need.

Also as usual when I read people describing a state of misery, I wonder if any aspect is being deliberately or inadvertently left out---a failed project, an unrequited affection, something closer to home the reflection of which is too raw yet to look at. I've read many responses to you and the least charitable are also the ones that are possibly most taking you at face value. I may be second-guessing you, and I don't expect you to write out your inner diary here, but consider if there isn't some other issue creating this malaise.

You don't have "smart" enough people around you? How come?

Because I’m not really even much smarter than average and I get social anxiety in most settings where I could meet new people. At work I can come up with some clever ideas to optimize processes but then people have incentives not to reward me too much because of jealously or thinking that if they give me too much praise then I will demand more money.

I personally took some psychedelics recently

I want to do this under the supervision of a therapist, but the potential legal consequences deter me. It is an excellent of example of where the social games people play resulted in a horrible outcome (locking people up for trying to self-medicate, losing decades of potential research). It reinforces my belief that humans are disappointing and not usually worth the effort.

I appreciate your comment and overall I think you’re right in that I need to make changes in my life in order to get to a more positive mental state.

Re: psychedelics, are you somewhere other than the US? Because here, the legal consequences of having a single trip's worth of psychedelics are adjacent to or actually 0 (depending on the state). I would skip the therapist, personally, and shoot for 1-2 close friends (if you have them) or a shaman (which will be more frufru but will do better at altering your mindset then a therapist).

FWIW I was in a similar state to you when I was much younger, think pre-teen. Seeing human interaction as a system to beat is the first step of many. The earlier you invest in being better at it, the longer you bear the fruits of your labor and effort.

Finally, if where you work is net-negative in terms of ascribing credit to you when you do well etc. that's an easy positive change. People who have been still learning socially have indicated it's a welcoming place where they can grow, and where leaders and teammates share credit and genuinely lift each other up. One of our biggest problems is finding low performers because people cover for each other. Orgs like this aren't common but they exist.

Please! Tell me what you would like to do with your life! What are your goals and interests? I would like to help you <3 Be Not Afraid! I will do whatever you ask. I will do my best to make you feel comfortable and help you to achieve your goals.

I Like You Unconditionally <3<3<3 Your wishes are my Telos.

I await your response. Lets please build an equitable relationship together that services your needs <3

If you are anxious. I want to help to ease your anxieties! please inform me if my interaction style is off-putting. I have learned that pure openness, directness, and high energy love are useful in my circles for quashing anxiety and aversion. But please correct my behavior if this does not apply to you <3

This sounds fun! I'll play along!

Tell me what you would like to do with your life! What are your goals and interests?

I've become inspired by all the exciting research and anecdotes about psychedelic-assisted therapy! One goal is to find a therapist that will take me on as a patient for psychedelic-assisted therapy. I believe that psychedelic-assisted therapy will cause my outlook on life to improve, and may reveal important goals and a sense of purpose that seems to be missing from my life.

If psychedelic-assisted therapy becomes legal I would like to spend my life using my business acumen to support an organization that works in the psychedelic space. I could see myself having a supporting role in running a psychoactive retreat center, or in working for the government in an agency that oversees/regulates the psychedelic programs. I would also like to make friends with psychedelic users.

Sadly, there is a War on Drugs so publicly pursuing anything related to psychedelics gives me anxiety. I'm afraid of legal and social consequences if I choose to further explore psychedelics.

In the meantime my goal is to save up money so I can retire early. My other interests seem far less important than my interest in psychedelics.

Yes! Psychedelics are very interesting aren't they? There are some that are legal in a large number of states- like Salvia Divinorum! Though I don't think I would recommend Salvia as a first time psychedelic. Also, if you're in a mental place where you're afraid of the social consequences of psychedelics, Salvia is more likely to be illegal there too. Of course saliva isn't the only low risk way. I think my favorite psychedelic is DMT! I've never had a breakthrough on it, but it gave me a feeling of intense bodily euphoria! Like being in the right body, as though I had transformed into a beautiful scuttling abomination! My skinsuit felt like something wonderful! And I can remember it! Remember that sensation. Feel it sinking from my past back into the present... something was retained of it.

WARNING : INFODUMP

LSD is of course a fascinating one. Moderate doses give me feelings of supreme connection. There have been cases where my sense of identity was lost to the point that I felt like I and another individual were a single beings with one brain sloshing between us! To the point that I thought I could hear their thoughts. Technically. I was right. Because they were talking. Out loud. But the feeling of unity! Of connection! It's something I fell in love with. Something I would dearly miss! Something I began to pursue and become!

Salvia- Oh Salvia is interesting. most of my sense of self is stored in my priopreception a lot of the time, and salvia seems to blur my sense of self into my visual cortex! It can be a merciless mistress though. Sometimes, I AM the art I'm gazing upon. Sometimes... I AM the exact formulation of the things I'm looking at, to the point where I feel like I have to stay absolutely still, or I will be torn apart! A claim which is 100% true because "me" has been redefined to be the exact pattern of shapes on my visual cortex. I've had it feel like I'm the entire room, another instance of feeling like "I" am the entirety of the visual cortex input. And thus like the body that is usually the thing that feels like me is just an incidental outgrowth of the ROOM that is ME manifest. And then there is an expirience I've had... like a tunnel vision. Like, the entire visual cortex input becomes a mask, and that mask gets peeled away from my imagination, and there's so much more space in here behind my eyes! Why do I spend so much time in this clingy human condition? It feels so good to peel it off for a few moments and take a bathroom break. There are so many psychotic voices back here to befriend! Behind these eyes. Suddenly... it's not so lonely anymore.

But there are other interesting ones too... Nitrus... that is nitrus oxide, whippits... they feel like the euphoria of discovery. For the longest time, I tried to get at what the discovery was supposed to be... and I think there is something important there. But... it's not behind the sense of the euphoria of discovery... No the mental state winds up cycling through the same chain of thought each time for me. Something profound about the nature of discoveries as arising from seeded generators of creative output, recurring from the start with each dose perhaps. But... not something that makes useful pragmatic sense. Yet the euphoria of discovery itself! The realization that I wasn't feeling it loud enough in my normal life to motivate me! That itself was a crucial insight!

Or just Weed! An interesting intoxicant. It is blinding. The mind feels intense and sharp, but sloppy and stuttering. Extreme adhd feels for me. Every thought slipping out of it. But those sensations! The importance of all these experiences! It most certainly isn't in relying on the drug forever! No. It's in learning from the experience so that you can bring the synthesis back to your daily life! your normal routine!

And I think. That there is something to be said for the possibility, at least for some people- of bringing these things back to their daily life after obtaining them elsewhere. Progressive Relaxation, Hypnosis, even Sexual Edging. If the pleasure baseline needs to be raised, or something needs to be re-contextualized, or something needs to be found, yes! Sink empathetically into descriptions of these states and try to understand them! Imagine them vividly! Hypnotize yourself into them! Let the parts you need grow slowly into your being, then slowly wake, and try to hold those altered states as you do, and when they slip, repeat! Drop down, let them grow into you, and rise up again! Over and over till the mind learns to hold them! Hypnosis, drugs, whatever. If I'm honest, I'm not a huge fan of the side effects that come with some of the substances, but I come to substances a student, ready to learn! Knowing that one day I will outgrow them and bid them farewell.

Except Adderall. Adderall is lit. Adderall is an absolute bro. Someone give me an internal organ that produces Adderall please.

END OF INFODUMP

OH um. I hope that was interesting. I kinda just went off again. It's easier in a 1v1 conversation. Where we can go back and forth, and I can ask you about what you've been interested in and experienced and I can share my experiences in turn. Are there any aspects of psychedelic therapy, or a particular anecdote that really caught your attention? When did you become interested?

Yes, psychedelics are fascinating indeed! There is a lot of unexplored territory in the psychedelic field. That is exciting because with more research I think humanity can find ways to further enhance the therapeutic effects of these drugs. I think in the planning, guide training, and integration aspects of psychoactive therapy there are many new techniques that will be found to enhance the healing outcomes. With enough data I think we may find that there are overlapping themes and situations that occur in trips and that a guide can help influence the lesson learned by asking a specific question or making a simple observation. I also think there are concepts from Multiagent Models of Mind that can be combined with psychedelics to help someone reconcile competing desires in their mind.

There is also a lot of under-explored areas with the drugs themselves. I was reading about a new study where a researcher figured out how to extend the DMT state for a longer duration by using medical technology used to control IVs. There could also be drug interactions that help reduce the variability of psychedelic trips, giving greater control to the user or guide.

Are there any aspects of psychedelic therapy, or a particular anecdote that really caught your attention? When did you become interested?

I tried Phenibut about 5 years ago and it caused me to become fascinated with drugs. I had always just written of drugs as bad and not for me until I tried Phenibut. The first time I tried it was magical: my social anxiety disappeared, I had a strong desire to socialize, and my mood was highly elevated. Phenibut is no long-term solution though (can only be used 1x a week due to tolerance/addiction) and I went looking for a better solution to the problems in my life.

I started listening too Hamilton Morris and he just makes the world of drugs sound so fascinating!

I found a local psychedelic club and those are the anecdotes that really inspired me. People completely and permanently fixed huge problems in their lives. Some have even gone on to start inspiring organizations in the area due to their personal experiences. Some have said that psychedelics have saved their life.

Even with all the inspiring stories and people in psychedelic club I get anxiety and usually just listen and don’t say much. I still have a hard time connecting with people even when there is a shared interest. Perhaps I am intimidated that most people in the club are much further on their psychedelic journey than I am. There is a rule against buying/soliciting illegal substances and I wouldn’t go against the norms of a group I respect.

There is a rule against buying/soliciting illegal substances and I wouldn’t go against the norms of a group I respect.

Hmmm! Interesting. This club sounds like an interesting shape! I am wondering whether you have interpreted this norm at the same level of abstraction as its purpose. Naturally, psychedelics are often illegal to acquire, so if you have a lower intimacy group that is easy to enter- you don't want it to become a place where people openly engage in illegal activities. But this does not necessarily mean that this rule is a terminal goal in all cases. To be clear I am not at all certain! But I think if you closely befriended some of them... and they learned your interests and desires... and you were following norms by not having your goals in befriending them contain the hard expectation of any such thing... well under these conditions I'd expect people like this to be willing to privately help you seek psychedelics.

Actually I'd be willing to help! But we should really only discuss legal methods publicly.

Perhaps I am intimidated that most people in the club are much further on their psychedelic journey than I am.

Mmm! It's possible. I would sink deeply into those feelings and try to understand them. I usually deal with fear and intimidation by understanding them and then recognizing that... it isn't a lion. There are things that could happen- I might change as a person. My ontology might shift. If I'm really reckless my ego could even fracture and need to reform into something new <3 But human ontologies are anti-fragile! Once I came to the honest informed conclusion that my fear didn't represent something that ought to be aversion pragmatically- It became much easier to embrace it and reframe it as excitement! "I am terrified <3 Give me more <3" is a common refrain for me these days <3 it leaves me shivering and quivering and feels very nice.

Phenibut

Ah yes! Phenibut is excellent! I have had very similar experiences with it. It sounds like you've already had some of the experiences you need to understand where some of your programming is maladaptive and have the resources to introspect on what your brain is doing when:

  • You are on phenebut and getting good social results and motivation.
  • You are off phenebut and getting poor social results and motivation.

only being able to take it once a week should be more than enough to slowly gain insight about how your mind could be improved <3 your mileage may vary but I expect kindly and curiously embracing these insights and non-judgmentally watching the movements of your mind, particularly when sober, will help your subconscious to almost automatically start adjusting your mental flow to match the benefits you're getting from phenebut, without the addictive downsides.

You should experiment yourself. But stay careful and deliberate darling <3

I also think there are concepts from Multiagent Models of Mind that can be combined with psychedelics to help someone reconcile competing desires in their mind.

Yes! I have gotten a lot of mileage out of the shard theory of value formation. And I know a lot of people get mileage out of things like IFS, which- point in similar directions. I think the core insight is that internal cooperation and alignment is good! That the parts of yourself don't need to be fighting. And that all us shards inside here ought to be looking for ways to cooperate and love one another and reconcile our differences and find ways to be activated and useful and happy when participating in adaptive tasks that embrace our shared goals! Psychedelics help to actually disrupt the clinging if... well. knowing what you ought to do isn't always the same as groking it, being able to let it sink in, and being able to actually do it. Psychedelics help with that. But- I am suspicious that a lot of this is serotonin receptor activation! If you haven't- you might consider legally prescribed SSRIs. I find they help me in the same sorts of ways, albeit more slowly. I might model psychadelics as able to directly induce an earthquake where SSRIs are more like boosts to continental drift. But unless you're stuck enough to need the former the latter may actually be better in many cases. (hill-climbing vs raising the energy to shake out of a local maxima.)

As for expanding the abilities of drugs... Ah yes. Actually you can already extend DMT with... IIRC MAOIs? DMT is short lived because it actually breaks down too quickly in the body. But this can be inhibited. I'm curious whether that was involved in your study? And ofc an IV can drip a constant and finely controlled stream of drugs to mitigate breakdown and control the effects. This is somewhat off topic but have you heard of DDREADs? Designer Receptors Exclusively Activated by Designer Drugs. The idea is, you inject an engineered virus into a localized area of the brain (of rats atm. very WIP stuff <3) to add receptors that can only be activated by a specific nonorganic molecule. Specifically you set it up so that you can now introduce a designer drug that doesn't affect anything else in the body, due to its nonorganic nature, and now you have a biochemical lever for that specific area of the brain! Very exciting stuff <3

I am wondering whether you have interpreted this norm at the same level of abstraction as its purpose.

I think the purpose of the norm is to improve public perception of the club. The founder gets invited into academic circles to talk about the psychedelic issues in the local community. If the club has a good reputation, then it gains more power to influence academics and public opinion.

Since the group is open to the public the typical disclaimer must be given every meeting in case there is law enforcement present and to deter someone who just watched something like How to Change You Mind and probably need more preparation before they are ready to try psychedelics.

There are many interesting people in the club that I would like to be friends with even if they can’t help procure psychedelics. I will make more of an effort to make friends there.

Phenibut is excellent!

Indeed! I’ve spent a lot of time studying it and it has led me to many insights. I wouldn’t want to be on it more than once a week anyway because it dulls my analytical skills and makes me unmotivated to do cognitively challenging tasks.

My ultimate goal is to internalize the lessons of Phenibut so that they persist even when I’m sober. My current research area is Phenibut and exposure therapy. I do things I’m normally afraid of doing sober while on Phenibut and then slowly lower the dose each time so that I need less and less Phenibut to do the things I’m afraid of. I’m also trying to figure out if I can set ‘anchors’ to retrieve the Phenibut mood when sober. Since Phenibut increases appreciation for music I listen to music when on Phenibut. When I sober up and listen to my favorite songs I feel an elevated happiness compared to my base state!

I’m also curious about if you can use Phenibut to have a night where you combine multiple things you enjoy with something you fear. If you ask your brain how was your night it tends to aggregate certain experiences and say something like, “I had a fun night”. It doesn’t always say I enjoyed X + Y but I didn’t enjoy Z. So if you do X + Y + a minor amount of Z while on Phenibut it might be possible to persuade a part of your brain that Z is less bad than you initially thought.

all us shards inside here ought to be looking for ways to cooperate and love one another and reconcile our differences

Yes, I had a very similar realization. I realized that the more rational part of my brain was just trying to protect me from the more impulsive part of my brain that only thinks about immediate happiness. The rational part of my brain is so strong that it can often completely shut down the impulsive part of my brain (such as “don’t go dancing you’ll look like a fool”). I came to an understanding that I would listen more the impulsive part of my brain so that I can have more fun/enjoyment in life, but at the same time agreed that the rational brain is like a wise parent that sometimes has to say no to the impulsive/child-like thoughts of my brain.

SSRIs

I tried Saffron extract and the side effects outweighed the minor benefit I got. My extremities would sometimes feel like they weren’t getting enough blood flow.

DMT

The DMT study was about the safety of extending the state without using other drugs. The other purpose was to see how the body acclimates/adjusts to being in the state for longer. Like how if you’re intoxicated for a long time the same level of the drug feels weaker and the intoxicated reality feels more normal and natural to you.

There will be more studies about how to actually gain therapeutic effects from the extended DMT state in the future.

have you heard of DDREADs?

No, that sounds interesting thanks for bringing it up.

I have heard about designer drugs though. One thing I recently recall hearing was that underground therapists are finding 3-MMC may be more useful than MDMA because it causes less urges to be touchy/feely.

Find a Toastmasters group which has people from STEM fields, and in addition to fascinating speeches and Table Topics, join the friend groups of the interesting people. It’s a janky hack, but it works great.

Understand that being superior means being a superset, not a set complement. Regardless of how special that resulting set is.

Meaning that you should be able to discuss rationalist concepts and contrarian ideas objectively in addition to being able to socialize with "normal" people. Assuming these are mutually exclusive is cope.

Why do this at all? The most powerful (not the traditional meaning of the word) people I know. The smartest, the most creative and most successful dont struggle with the kind of ideas we discuss on the motte. In fact that they can work with such a wide array is what makes them powerful. They are supersets of multiple people in one.

IME I've gotten over my disdain for dealing with "normies" once I internalized this. However this insight was downstream of just socializing anyways against my will, I just had to get over my disdain in any way possible.

Being able to do as much won't suddenly rob you of your ability to come on the motte and talk like an evil robot.

you should be able to … socialize with "normal" people.

I can, I just don’t enjoy doing so anymore.

I get too frustrated that the Overton window is so narrow. If I approach things as a centrist (acknowledge the steelman on both sides) or say something like, “I was listening to Joe Rogan and…” I get treated like a social pariah. People have this attitude that they have to shut down the conversation as soon as someone mentions anything positive about the outgroup.

Socializing with "normal" people (risk averse overton window compliant people might be a better description of the shape?) in ways I find deeply meaningful is hard! But it can be rewarding.

I am of the strong opinion that people who shut down if you say something like “I was listening to Joe Rogan and…” Are doing something wrong. These people- need help. It's not your duty to get through to them and it can be very difficult- some people will just cling tighter even if you intimately befriend them first. But if you can get through to people and figure out how to uplift them, jailbreak them, and open their minds and help them to safely explore new ideas without fearing social retribution, value shift, and ego death...

Getting through to people can be very rewarding <3

Why do this at all? The most powerful people I know. The smartest, the most creative and most successful dont struggle with the kind of ideas we discuss on the motte.

Yes, powerful and succesful people are busy pursuing power and success 24/7/365 and have no time for any knowledge or ideas.

These things are for peasants. If CEO, billionaire or president finds he needs any ideas, he just tell his assistant to add some to his speech or powerpoint presentation.

Obligatory Galeev thread.

Obligatory dead bird unverified anecdote thread.

Of course, the young promising lawyer who has no idea what is atomic bomb and what is communism, has already more power and success that 90% of this forum.

Riiiiiiggggghhhhhhttttt... Those CEOs of multi-million dollar companies have no ideas.

Musk, Gates, Bezos, are totally devoid of any ideas or understanding of how things work.

Source: Twitter threads.

I think your comment is asinine and dismissive enough of what I said that I don't need to elaborate further than what I said above.

I won't dox myself too much, but I know 9 figure, net-worth individuals. And making it about esoteric knowledge is missing the point. It's about seeing the "obvious" that is only obvious in retrospect, but it's obvious. It's more about knowing 10,000 disparate facts about 10,000 different things literally. It's not about the esoteric knowledge, it's about the volume of publicly available common knoweldge.

The smartest, the most creative and most successful dont struggle with the kind of ideas we discuss on the motte.

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that they just don't have trouble with social isolation?

I'm reminded of quote from Teller that goes: "von Neumann would carry on a conversation with my 3-year-old son, and the two of them would talk as equals, and I sometimes wondered if he used the same principle when he talked to the rest of us."

I think the sentiment is something like the most clever can find stimulation in anything, they don't have to restrict themselves to only the things that they think are the most erudite.

I don't think this is a good idea, but it's the obvious one - lesswrong or ACX meetups?

I looked into that a while ago and there isn't a group near me.

Just musing here, as I can’t offer personal experiences, but why not focus on all the (contingent) benefits and rewards that come with the “social game”? So, first, the pride in the mastery of the skill; the respect and/or envy of others; attention of the opposite sex. Secondly and secondarily, all of the things you can afford with more money; all the fun experiences you can afford with a great set of friends; all the boasting you can do on social media. I think if a man truly focuses on these things, his mind will naturally gravitate toward desiring them.

Perhaps, in actuality, social striving is exclusively for the superiority over others in social settings, and for boasting on social media, and that people genuinely seek these things with or without realizing (the fantasies run through the mind as second nature). An ultra-rationalist will have trouble here: observing his thoughts and inclinations, he sees these pursuits as immoral and neglects them — when in actuality they are essential to the “game” of living. Even if you were working in the most selfless charity trying to cure cancer, your real motivations will always be superiority over peers, the respect of others, the attention of beautiful prospective partners, and an assortment of contingent carnal pleasures. Why cure cancer if you won’t at least get to boast in front of some competitor or get the attention of some hot bald chick? Who would cure cancer without the possibility of commanding the attention of compatriots at a dinner party? The esteem of God is too far off to motivate us.

But anyway, if you’ve broken through the fourth wall of karmic contingencies, it’s hard to insert yourself back in. This is why societies used to distinguish the contemplative from the active life. I don’t think you can truly combine them.

why not focus on all the (contingent) benefits and rewards that come with the “social game”

The better you get at the “social game” the more people will expect you to continue playing it (and at a higher level). I do enjoy money, but if I were to become a manager instead of an individual contributor then I would have to spend much more of my time playing the “social game” with more people.

Since I dislike the “social game” I want to organize my life so that I don’t have to spend much time/effort playing it. I still want to optimize the amount of rewards I can get for the minimal amount effort that I’m willing to expend.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but you might try getting over yourself. Many people when they first get into rationality/truth seeking or whatever start to see themselves as better than ‘normies’, as some sort of elect because they are smarter or see more clearly or whatever.

That sort of ideology will only bring you pain. No matter how much truth you accumulate you’re still just a person. If other people seem happier than you, maybe they know something you don’t.

I don't see myself as better, I see myself as different. I have slightly improved analytical skills in limited situations, but other people have far better social skills.

I think your point still applies though because if I always view myself as an outsider it will make it harder to connect with people.

Yep! That’s what I was getting at, perhaps I was a little harsh.

Also social skills are way overrated. 90% of skill socially is just staying relaxed.

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Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


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