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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   2111 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for July 26, 2023

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I'm looking for a new Church... do you all have any advice on how to find one?

Preferably something like Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, I want a more traditional place.

I am pretty far away from Christianity personally but aren't most Orthodox churches essentially ethno-churches? Can you just convert into them and start going to their sermons?

You can in America.

Not the place so I'll keep it brief, but I don't think it's worth diving headfirst into a large number of cosmic-scale factual and moral claims that are both historically contingent on political and social arrangements that seem unlikely to produce truth and are also knowably false just because you find modern value systems to be spiritually bereft. Even given that progressive or liberal values are false, that doesn't make the values they replaced true! Closing your eyes doesn't make the technology and social changes that precipitated modern values go away!

To actually answer your question: churches are everywhere, just google <my area> plus 'church', or optionally 'catholic church'. Good advice I've heard is to just try service at quite a few different churches, one after the other, there a lot of variation both between sects and between individual churches in the pastor's style, and see which ones you like. Sometimes people worry this is disrespectful, but I've been told it isn't at all.

Other commenters who note that catholicism and eastern orthodoxy are very different ... that's true within the values of the churches themselves, but isn't true from an outside perspective that views religion as an aesthetic way of organizing social relationships - potentially a valuable one - than a divinely ordained and accurate set of claims about the structure of the universe. Some intelligent devoted christians spend years 'discerning', agonizing over the subtle doctrinal differences separating sects. But, with the Filioque as the obvious example, these doctrinal differences have little practical relationship to the moral and aesthetic differences between sects, which are (as indicated by your preference for Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy due to ritual and moral gravity) arguably much more important. And ... clearly, just viewing the causal structure that leads you and similar people to religion, the outside perspective is a more accurate description of what you're looking for, revealed-preference-wise, than the other!

Not the place so I'll keep it brief

You're right, it's not the place! You didn't really keep it brief either... ;P

political and social arrangements that seem unlikely to produce truth and are also knowably false just because you find modern value systems to be spiritually bereft.

This depends on what you see as truth. From a purely empirical standpoint, sure, religion is bullshit and there's no way Jesus rose from the dead etc etc. That being said, I've come to realize there is far more to the idea of truth than most rationalists believe. There is experiential knowledge that exists and can be verified by ourselves. Sure our consciousness isn't foolproof and we can trick ourselves, but there is factual knowledge to be gained there. In fact, it's the one frontier that science really hasn't been able to penetrate yet.

And if you take that view, then

unlikely to produce truth

seems pretty facile and wrong. These religious traditions are the honed core of wisdom that has persisted for thousands of years, through societal upheavals and persecutions and all sorts of other trials. This wisdom has persisted longer than any kingdom, state or empire. The truths extolled in religions are literally the central truths for the vast majority of humans who have ever lived.

Regardless, I'm not trying to rehash the athiest culture wars, just explaining how I've arrived at my current post-rationalist or meta-rationalist opinions. Also, at the end of the day, rationality doesn't seem to make people very happy. In fact in my experience, and the experience of most I've seen in the rationalist/EA spaces, it does the exact opposite. So even if religion does happen to be totally wrong on all counts, which I doubt, at the very least it's a useful and positive delusion for most people.

rationality doesn't seem to make people very happy

I've noticed this too, but then I took a step back and recognized a larger pattern. This is something like the stages of grief. I think rationality causes people to go through many stages/emotions and unhappiness is just one they can temporarily land on.

If you look at other examples of people radically changing their belief system later in life you will often observe that they go through a cycle of emotional states.

Do these emotional states just appear from nothing? I'd argue that they become happier because they find some other belief system above and beyond rationality that helps them integrate their psyche.

Rationality alone is cold comfort.

In the acceptance stage (the last stage) of grief:

Acceptance and hope: There’s a gradual acceptance of life’s new configuration—and a feeling of possibility in the future.

Acceptance means embracing the present, understanding the extent of the loss rather than fighting it, accepting responsibility for yourself and your actions, and then starting your journey toward a new phase of life with contentment.

I don't know why it is human nature that most people have to go through all the other stages before they can come to acceptance. I just observe that it happens. When something unfair/unjust happens in the world many people will become angry initially. Many eventually come around to acceptance over time. Just because things are unfair the rational action isn't to waste your energy being upset/angry forever.

Those are not the same thing, my dude.

You should probably do a bit of research on that old world religion; and also consider looking around for a non-evangelical church near you.

The more trad protestant denominations can be good if you really like digging down on scripture instead of more rote sermons. (Baptists et all)

The only reason I'm not in the "all Christians are room temperature IQ morons" edgy boy camp is because I got taken to a Baptist church during my formative years.

Those are not the same thing, my dude.

Eh coming from a background of hippy-dippy universalist churches that only quote the Bible maybe once or twice a year, they look pretty similar to me.

You should probably do a bit of research on that old world religion; and also consider looking around for a non-evangelical church near you.

Trust me, I've done a ton of research. Which is why I've concluded that Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox are the two strains of Christianity most likely to have kept or hewn closely to the truth. What do you mean by non-evangelical in this sense though?

The more trad protestant denominations can be good if you really like digging down on scripture instead of more rote sermons. (Baptists et all)

My understanding with most protestant/baptist denominations is that they throw out all the symbology and rituals like the Eucharist, which is kind of not what I'm looking for at the moment. Is that wrong?

My understanding with most protestant/baptist denominations is that they throw out all the symbology and rituals like the Eucharist, which is kind of not what I'm looking for at the moment. Is that wrong?

The factual complete answer is: Ehhhhhhhhhhhh???

Some Baptist churches are all fire and brimstone politics from the pulpit; the one I went attended/was baptized at spent a month of 3 hour sermons with a break in the middle for eating what you bought at the bake sale split between Communion, choral music with mandatory participation by everyone in the church, and drilling down on a single chapter/section of verses/verse with a gosh darn debate component.

Basically, it's very uneven. It could be that the type of church I imagine is dead and gone with the generation that attended them and they all turned into boomers and hyperstimulus.

My main position is that you gotta really know what you are getting into if you go for a catholic or orthodox church; you gotta know that the main thing your are signing up for is ritual and not religion. The religion part doesn't take place in the church.

Is your question more along the lines of "How do I figure out what parishes are near me?" or "How do I figure out which parishes are healthy and suitable for me?"

For the first question, if you are in the United States and are looking for an Eastern Orthodox parish, the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops maintains a directory of all parishes here, and at least the larger jurisdictions maintain their own, which may or may not be more up to date (e.g. the OCA has one here). I imagine that your local Roman Catholic diocese will also have a directory.

For the second question, I can't speak at all for what Catholic parishes are or are not traditional, but every Orthodox church will use the same traditional Divine Liturgy, with differences mostly being minor cultural practices (e.g. which melodies are used for singing, whether people sit during part of the Liturgy or stand the whole time) and what language(s) are used. I converted to Orthodoxy not terribly long ago and have had a great experience in my local OCA mission parish (we use English). I'd recommend trying to find a church that serves Liturgy in a language you understand. It may be hard to tell without attending or poking around which parishes are healthy or not, so probably just try one that looks reasonable.

If you do decide to look into Orthodoxy, feel free to DM me if you feel like you need to ask someone random questions, There's lots of good resources available online (and in book form) but there's also a lot of weird/incorrect stuff online and sometimes it helps to ask a live person, even if it's only someone you barely, vaguely know from a niche internet forum.

Thanks! A couple friends are actually Eastern Orthodox and they make a strong case.

Don't you just start attending Mass on Sundays and holidays/volunteering for small stuff?

Well yeah but there are a ton around us, trying to figure out which ones to try I guess.

Sorry for the facile response, but your initial question lacked details.

Are you looking for a community, or a particular discipline in which to practice your faith?

Community fishing probably has the same guidelines as usual - class, tribe, values, culture - with the caveat that Churches tend to transcend (at least a bit) class boundaries more than other social groups.

Changing Churches for religious reasons is a lot more technical, what exactly do you object to in your current liturgy?

My current church is very perennialist hippy type stuff so I’m looking to try out some more traditional services.

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