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Iconochasm

2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.

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joined 2022 September 05 00:44:49 UTC 

				
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Iconochasm


								

								

								
								
								

								
							
					
 
				


				
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.

				
				
				

				

					2 followers  

					follows 10 users  

					joined 2022 September 05 00:44:49 UTC
				


				
					

					
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				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
FWIW, I vaguely remember seeing or reading articles claiming severe treatment of the J6 prisoners (held in solitary, etc), and vague claims of wildly disproportionate punishments for extremely minor offenses.  After seeing your posts on the topic the last few days, I am moved to concluding those were probably disingenuous partisan bullshit.


And I still almost made a fool of myself with an instinctive "Well, what if...", but luckily I double checked the date and realized my mistake.  The corollary to this is that it's hard to believe that J6 was less than two years ago.  It's been talked about so much that it feels much longer.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


since the number of them who "literally do the rape" is small




As I've said, it's comparable in rate to other organizations who have been dragged through the mud over it.  Every teacher is a mandatory reporter; I believe (hope!) that they're all trained to recognize those behaviors are red flags for grooming/child abuse.  They have no excuse for not being fully cognizant.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This is definitely a valid concern.  "Groomer" is certainly a potential superweapon, and partisans are well familiar with the Evil Overlord advice to use those at every opportunity, and it will eventually be abused.  But I think this one is more at the phase "racist" was in the 70's/80's, where there is plenty of low-hanging fruit to call out where the phrase fits well enough.  To your examples above, I think it's fair for 1, 2, and 4.  And I honestly don't think it's hard to thread this needle, to apply the beneficial things progressives want, without doing groomy shit.  But I think we could do with a phase where professional standards and best practices are enforced, and people figure out how to do what they need to do within those constraints.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I had a list with a few others, too, but blew that effortpost load early on a comment and stopped keeping track.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
So just to be clear, do you think that term would apply to Ghislaine Maxwell?


And to clarify, the criticism is "you are acting like people who groom and manipulate and rape children, and some of you literally do the rape, and you're willfully obscuring the ability of outsiders to distinguish which of you will cross that line." Does that bother you less?  If there a pithy term for that?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The term grooming is also in common usage to describe progressive women in their late 20's who regret sleeping with an older, high-status man.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I do not agree, for the exact reason it's fair to call Ghislaine Maxwell a groomer.  Same as it would be fair to say it about a wife who lured children to her husband, but deluded herself about what was going on.  Intent may be necessary for a criminal charge, but willful idiocy is not a defense against social criticism.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


No, grooming is not merely a set of behaviors. You are ignoring the intent to molest, which is the key part.




And plenty of teachers and activists have that intent, in rates at least comparable to other organizations that have faced reputational and financial ruin over their association.  And as you say, we have bright-line rules to make it easier to detect bad people.  Actively generating shrouds of chaff in which bad people can operate is a bad thing.  It deserves criticism.  "I'm not molesting children, I'm just deliberately cultivating an environment conducive to child molestation" is not the defense you think it is.


Imagine a Scoutmaster or priest actively arguing that they should be allowed to engage kids in sexually charged conversations, make sure they had access to porn, and set an official policy of keeping secrets from parents.  Oh, but don't call us groomers, only an increasing-by-obvious-incentive portion of us are literally raping kids!  In the real world, Scout leaders are not allowed to talk to kids at all without another adult present, or CCed in any written communications.


Frankly, this seems like a wildly isolated demand for charity.




I am not sure that BSA is the most representative example re these general issues,




Yes, that was definitely erring too far on the side of protecting kids, which rather undermines your point.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Pedophiles seem to believe the exact opposite, that children are "naturally" sexual, and that they're being kind by sneaking them materials behind the back of mean old oppressive society.


Critically, this attitude also seems common in porn-brained, sex-positive progressives who had access to hardcore pornography from age 10 themselves.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This is the crux of the problem, and the crux of the strategic equivocations.  Over decades of study, we have identified certain behaviors that people intent on harming children tend to use to enable that harm.  Encouraging children to look at porn.  Engaging them in sexually charged conversations.  Pushing them to keep secrets, especially from their parents.


During the ruinous lawsuits against Boy Scouts of America, information from the records was released demonstrating the sort of things that had happened in the organization.  One example in my local area was something like "Man becomes scoutmaster in 1984.  In 1984, he takes 6 boys camping, and provides them with porn and alcohol,"  No act of pedophilia was even alleged.  Phrased like that, it sounds like something The Onion's version of VP Joe Biden would do, roll up to the Jamboree with a keg and hand out some Playboys, haha what a wacky joke, what kind of insane prude freaks out at 15 year old boys getting access to porn and some beer?


And yet, that sort of thing wasn't tolerated even in the 80's (that scoutmaster was banned in 1985).  And this was before the regulations and protections were seriously heightened in the 90's.  Currently, any adult who wants to volunteer with BSA is required to take a Youth Protection training course.  That course includes video demonstrating grooming behavior, including an adult man encouraging a teenage boy to look at porn, to talk about his sexual feelings and interests, and to hide those things from his parents.


Those are grooming behaviors.  That is what grooming is.


And responsible organizations categorically ban those behaviors because it's just not worth trying to separate the adults who take the next step and actually molest a kid from the creepy wacky uncle Joe Biden who is just kind of inappropriate and unfiltered.   It doesn't matter if they're not actually a pedo, they're wearing a pedo uniform.  But the criticism is even more restrained than that;  they're not being called pedophiles, they're being called groomers.  Because they're doing groomer shit.


And frankly, the literal pedos are common enough.  Stats for public school employees seem roughly comparable to Catholic priests, and far in excess of the Scouts.  And that's not even getting into the people who have Typical Minded themselves into believing that some huge portion of the population is secretly sex or gender queer and they need to groom help kids understand that.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think this really undersells the cultural impact on the ground level.  Perhaps it somehow elides respectability because of how much was driven by the Daily Show, but for a lot of regular Democrat types I encounter in real life, watching Fox News is seen as appalling.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think you laid out part of the "two movies" effect at play.  Personally, I know one trans person, and as I keep saying, she got on estrogen literally the first time she had a meeting with a healthcare professional.  She got a round of bloodwork done within a few days; results came in a couple weeks later and showed a severely low T level.  Neither that, nor the obvious other severe issues (alcoholism, depression, political radicalization, Covid alienation induced mania) gave anyone any pause.


Maybe that's extremely unusual.  But the Tavistock Clinic was recently shut down over complaints that they single-mindedly pushed transitioning, and apparently the UK is reconsidering those policies.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
There are also a lot of fat government health officials.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Do you feel the same fears about your children being encourages to be homosexual? Homosexuals can still reproduce (especially women), but they have much fewer children on average and homosexuality is much more prevalent than transexuality, certainly the sterilized kind.




We've actually already crossed that bridge and come out fine.  My teenaged daughter is part of that ~15% of teenage girls who "identify as bisexual", but have never displayed a non-straight inclination in any manner whatsoever.  It's an aesthetic, a rainbow wristband to pair with her emo band t-shirt, in the same way she used to tell classmates she was a vampire.  In the vanishingly unlikely event that she ends up in a stable adult relationship with another woman, I will sigh and artlessly ensure she is aware of her options.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


This is false.




So the prior article did seem to be about sports stuff at a quick glance, but this one




The latest directive comes in the form of a letter issued in late February to DFPS directing the agency to classify medical treatments for transgender adolescents—such as puberty blockers and hormone injections—as “child abuse” under existing state law.




is a good example of exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about.  Not just restricting it, or putting more onerous requirements, but straight up classifying it as child abuse is the kind of "Fuck you" offensive maneuver I was thinking about.




Essentially, you're claiming that talking about the existence of gay or trans people is 'sexually-oriented' material in a way that discussing heterosexual relationships is not.




I honestly don't think that discussing heterosexual relationships is something that schools like doing in the first place.  There are too many kids for whom that's a sore spot.  On a personal level, I spent a couple of years reaching out to teachers to ask them to be cautious around the topic of "moms", and I was repeatedly reassured that it wasn't likely to be an issue, I was far from the only parent whose kids had a family related emotional disturbance, and teachers were all trained to be sensitive about that stuff.  Even when they do a Mother's Day activity, it's quickly glossed over as "pick a special lady in your life, a mom, grandma, aunt, family friend".  Grandparent's Day is Special Person's Day, etc.  Instead, they just use groups of racially and gender diverse kids as the cast in all the short reading pieces, maybe with a teacher or generic adult.  In that context, throwing in some examples of gay families where "Daddy and Daddy still love each other!" leaves a bit of a different impression.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I understand that imagining your own child becoming a modern trans eunuch touches a nerve. I don't necessarily think it's healthy to focus on one relatively unlikely source of "castration" when society is full of these kinds of pitfalls and in much more likely forms like feminism and certain kinds of environmental activism. Parts of Western society have become a nihilistic death cult, waiting for the End and unwilling to propagate itself into the future with offspring.




It's less "I am generally deeply worried about trans issues" and more "When the topic of trans kids is brought up, I have a disproportionate emotional reaction, let me dig in and try to understand where this is coming from."


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I mean, would you react in the exact same way if your kid was in some other way rendered unable to have kids themselves, like they were gay or got a vasectomy once they were an adult?




I find myself having a mild preference against them being gay for what seems to be this reason, but homosexuality is less of an obstacle for having biokids these days.  Similarly, I'd be rather annoyed if they both went childfree, but in that situation I can consider context or make the pitch for why kids are worthwhile and then respect the decision of reasoned adults.




I think we're tipping in hysteria pretty clearly here.




The downthread topic that sparked this was a proposed bill to take kids away from parents who expressed resistance or skepticism.  Take that threat entirely off the table, and ensure that I get to make my own determination on how sincere/serious the gender-nonconformity is while my kids are minors, and almost all of the heated goes away.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I have a very smart friend who is also a talented decoupler, who could easily be a very quality contributer here if dealing with Culture War issues didn't make him bleed from the eyes.  He is literally the only person I know whose Facebook posts about politics did not make me lose respect for him.  Over the years, we have had a number of conversations about contentious CW topics that flirted with the border of Adversarial Collaboration, long detailed discussions handled with fairness, civility, and mutual respect.


Until the topic of student loan forgiveness came up.  That discussion was unusually heated.  He seemed almost frantic, heated about PPP loan forgiveness hypocrites and just not giving the expected degree of decoupled consideration for arguments about how the loan forgiveness was an overall terrible policy.  He seemed personally invested, felt personally attacked, in a way he hadn't in conversations about abortion or gun control.


The thing is, my friend is a teacher.  Education is a big factor in his identity.  He has taught maybe a thousand students who might benefit from the forgiveness plan.  Attacks on that plan are an attack on his class identity.  Politics is the mind-killer, and it is a sad fact that a rationalist's Art is most likely to abandon him when he needs it most (or, rather, he will fail the Art).  And so my arguments sparked an uncontrolled emotional response that was missing from other, less identity-laden topics.


The second thing is, I've been on the other side of that coin, back when we had our multi-day deep dive into the gun control literature.  Gun control hits me emotionally as an attack on my class identity.  When I hear a gun control proposal, before I hear a single specific detail or spend a second considering merits, some lizard part of my brain interprets it as "Fuck you, your father, your father's father, and your father's father's father". (Does the word "father" still mean anything to you?)  I've begged off having spontaneous discussions about it in person, even with close family, because I don't want to spike myself into rage and other unpleasant feelings.  During that deep dive, my excellent friend was so calm, fair and rational that he overrode that concern, and I ended up learning a lot and having a great time.


And I'm thinking about this now, because I notice a similar reaction to the trans discussion downthread.  The idea that my children might be brainwashed into taking evolutionarily self-destructive choices, and I can't even attempt to oppose it without facing the full wrath of the modern State, kindles a pre-rational, animal panic/fury response.  I find myself getting heated to an unusual degree just thinking about it.  I don't think I'm particularly "anti-trans".  I was willing to be accepting two decades ago, when I first learned it was even a thing.  But something about the thought that the phenomenon might hit my kids triggers an atavistic survival instinct.  That reaction doesn't trigger when I consider my son dressing like David Bowie, or my daughter playing sports.  It doesn't happen when a peer goes trans.  It triggers at the thought of one of the two corporeal incarnations of my DNA and memes getting sucked into a fraught psychological memeplex, and particularly at the thought of them being medically sterilized.


Imagine an alternate world where any time a kid expressed suicidal ideation, government employees would firmly nudge them towards euthanasia, and would jail you as a parent for protesting.  That's roughly the level of emotional hit - some part of me considers this an existential threat.


But what are the odds?  0.3%?  That's not that much worse than the odds of childhood cancer, or other kind of unexpected death that a healthy mind doesn't overmuch worry about, and deals with gracefully if it comes.  But now it's apparently something more like nearly 2%?  That hits me in the Papa-Bear-Who-Wants-Grandkids-In-Space-Forever.  And it seems very likely that a lot of that is social contagion or could otherwise be wildly reduced with a minimal degree of skepticism towards youth fads.


So, two points.  One, I think it might behoove activist types (assuming we're not in pure conflict theory) to try to notice when one of their pushes is hitting this sort of reaction and figure out a path to undermine or alleviate it.


Secondly, a question for the community:  What gets you fiercely activated, beyond what you can rationally justify?  What CW issues feels like molten hot war to the hilt, where your instincts fight to throw aside all reason and charity?  Any thoughts about why?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


Either you already know the answer to this question, you'll say my response is categorically different (politics vs. social engineering) or that my response is just wrong, no? I doubt there's any huge culture war development I'm aware of that you remain ignorant of.




There's a lot of states that pass or consider a lot of bills that might get attention in media environments I don't frequent.  And in fairness, a lot of these examples are not quite what I'm thinking of, but some are.  The abortion bounty-hunter thing is a good example.  I'm not sure what the "trick" entails, but yes, fooling women who want abortions into visiting a clinic that is dedicated to convincing them to keep the baby is a reasonable fit.  Religion in schools is potentially fertile ground, but I don't just mean parents teaching kids their own religion, I mean something more like "Kansas passes a law to have CPS target parents who refuse to let their kids take Creationism classes."  Or refusing to certify graduation science requirements for atheists.  Similarly, all those "anti-trans" bills are about biological males participating in women's sports teams - has anyone finagled some clever scheme to ban trans students from all extracurriculars purely as a Fuck You wedge to punish the outgroup?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
There's some interesting efforts at vote splitting from Shapiro, the Democrat currently favored to win the PA governor's race.  Ads on crime and personal story that have a strong undertone of "Even if you're turning away from Fetterman, still vote for Shapiro!"


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


His campaign was supposed to be the proof-of-concept that economy-oriented left-wing politics can be a winning combo, that there was still room in the Dems for (white, but not only white) guys who vote left because they support the labor movement and a more equal division of wealth and that leaning towards that view would actually be good for the Dems to recoup the populist energy.




I am very skeptical of this narrative.  None of Fetterman's ads even hint at his left-wing politics, except when he has to try to defend past statements.  His whole tone is built around heavily implying that he is a Trump/Carlson style right populist who wants to fight Washington, without ever mentioning any specific policies.  Meanwhile, most of the attack ads against him are about how Fetterman is an extreme leftist.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I'm really enjoying the idea of a Special Forces operative whose main job is maximizing GDP because MOAR ECO means trivial investments in the future results in disproportionate Dakka Dividends.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I think we're just talking past each other right now.  Let's try again after some of these laws generate some actual specific situations.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
He is a very tall man who looks like a stereotypical Trump voter with very left-leaning politics and a Hispanic wife.  People were thinking he was going to be a shoo-in presidential candidate in 6 or 10 years.  Shame to throw that dream away just because of some crippling brain damage.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I think that if the parent's response is going to be "making the kid homeless", the kid has a serious interest in the parent not being made aware of it.




Even the infamous Florida bill had a waiver for situations where a teacher reasonably feared the kid would be harmed if their parents found out.




Is this child actually trans, or just exhibiting gender non-conforming behavior? Is it the role of teachers to report violations of traditional gender norms?




That's where it comes down to judgment, norms, and expected responses.  Boys have been putting on eye-liner for half a century.  Only recently has it been a behavior where an overly eager teacher might recommend a life-altering path of extreme body modification.