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Iconochasm

2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.

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joined 2022 September 05 00:44:49 UTC 

				
User ID: 314


				
				
				

			

		

	














	


		


			



	

		

			

			

				

					

						

							
						

						

							
							

								
Iconochasm


								

								

								
								
								

								
							
					
 
				


				
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.

				
				
				

				

					2 followers  

					follows 10 users  

					joined 2022 September 05 00:44:49 UTC
				


				
					

					
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User ID: 314


					
					
					
				

			


					

						
					



		

	

 











			
			

			
			

			




	


		

			
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				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 13, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The confusion comes from the fact that the word mostly gets used by far-leftists to refer to people like Hilary Clinton, which gives everyone else the impression that the term means something like "deep Democrats who want to regulate everything to death".  I basically never see it used for people like Reagan or Thatcher except in exactly this scenario of explaining what neoliberal really means.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Small-Scale Question Sunday for February 12, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I've succumbed to Defiance of the Fall, which is not as compelling as DCC, but has the powerful advantages of 8+ completed books and an addictive pace.  Earlier this week, the 8th Thousand Li book came out, and I tore through that in a day.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Depends on if we're talking anarcho-tyranny where the laws are only applied on the pro-social, or genuine commitment to police abolition.  If it's the latter, I made a post on TheSchism about that a while back:




There is no progressive utopia where the man who rapes my tween daughter gets rehabilitated with kind, gentle counseling, because I would have hunted him down and Blood Eagled him on livestream. Oh no, I've been sentenced to kind, gentle counseling. I decline to acknowledge my wrongdoing by attending. Are you going to send the social workers to not arrest me?






In the real world, I would not do so because I fear and respect the government's monopoly on retribution. Even if I were enraged by the outcome of the trial, I would have to weigh vengeance against the consequences for violating that monopoly.






A world with no police and no prisons is not one free of brutality. It's not even free of brutality against criminals! It would instead be a world where thieves are savagely beaten by enthusiastically vicious mall cops, rapists are castrated, and there is a vigorous subculture focused on videos of pedophiles being tortured to death.




				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Do you have anosmia?  Royal Farms reek like the worst blend of gasoline and fried chicken.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I'm not sure what teachers you're talking about that are complaining about mastery learning. I've also never heard of it being used in a school.




I sometimes browse /teachers for the cruel schadenfreude.  Being required to keep seperate IEPs for every kid and instruct them at their exact level of mastery (and how this is basically an insane and impossible demand on time and attention and multitasking) is a very common complaint.  Their descriptions seem like a very close match for the description of Mastery Learning in the wiki link you provided.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
The stuff /teachers constantly complains about sounds exactly like mastery learning.  PBL sounds delightfully impossible to measure.  Why are these supposed to be good?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


I remember sitting in elementary school reading classes, where kids would be randomly picked to read some passage out of a book, and it was painfully obvious which of my fellow students could only read by sounding out syllables based on the spelling of words; they had absolutely no idea what the semantic content of what they just read actually was.




And what do you think happens when whole-word kids encounter a novelty?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Sure it does.  Obedience implies submission, which is not swag.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for February 3, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


and professing love to a girl far away would be done by letter.




Does McSweeney's accept random submissions?  I have an idea for a 19th century style letter to a girl that is just 500 words vividly and unashamedly describing my cock.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
What swaggy beat cop is gonna take orders from some old-ass captain?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of February 6, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
I really dislike this sort of pseudo-principled argument for directional dishonesty.  Under this justification, why ought not the other side retort that slavery was a net deadweight loss, and that ADoS ought be grateful they ended up here at all, because the alternatives are death or Africa?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Don't elevators often have cameras, too?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Wheel of Time did that, to an extent.  The psuedo-Asian Borderlanders did have vaguely Asian appearances, but the Japanese and American Indian inspired Aiel are all blonde and redheaded white people and the Sea Folk are black.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
But at that point the "risk" to either party is actually quite symmetrical - some degree of potential unpleasant social experience, either embarrassment or having to awkwardly turn someone down.  If we want a situation where men have to face public embarrassment in the form of a public rejection, and women have to endure the annoyance of publicly embarrassing men, well, I might agree to those conditions, but I'm probably not going to think the women are equal.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


The problem every time these threads get spawned is that the aggrieved men complain only about the disadvantage they perceive (namely, that they can't get laid as easily as they'd like while the women they desire get to pick and choose and aren't punished for it), and won't acknowledge the real risks (not just "feeling bad" or "offended that an ugly guy approached me") that women have to contend with. A lot of them will react to "heterosexual men have the obligation to learn to read the room" the way feminists react to "women should learn to have situational awareness and exercise good judgment in choosing partners" - both get really pissed off at being "victim blamed" for being told that some negative consequences are actually avoidable.




One potential issue here:  what is the rate of violence women are intuitively expecting vs the rate at which nerdy tech dudes actually lash out?  I would expect a very large discrepancy between "ancestral environment" or "feminist paranoid take" versus "low T nerd convention".


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


not at women being afraid of being approached somewhere without a clear escape route.




This inverse of this was the many people saying at the time that they understood why he took his shot when in the elevator - it meant he didn’t have to get shot down and potentially embarassed in public.  It's not likely that he chose the elevator because of the implication.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Rephrase option 3 as "Sorry, I'm narrowmantic."  Now it sounds logical and scientific and pushing further would make you a bigot.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for February 3, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
They'll also just give them to you to take home if you ask.  Or, at least they did when I would ask for my scouts.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
What about just getting them fired and banned from using banks?


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
This is basically my attitude, with more aggressive schadenfreude.  EA is a community built by autistic nerds with more money than sense; this is just whining that some other group of sociopaths was running cons on the quokkas first.  You don't want to deal with the weird nerds?  Go build your own mountain of grant money.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Friday Fun Thread for February 3, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
If the groundhog sees its shadow, we get six more weeks of winter.  If the groundhog doesn't, then spring comes early.


So what does it mean when the groundhog just dies?


(This is why we need the BLR back.  That headline is just chefskiss.)


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


And note my original post expressed quite a bit of skepticism about the general claim; it might indeed be incorrect!




The point is that this doesn't matter.  Sure, assume it's true.  When you use that truth to set a target ("We want more AP students"), you lose ceteris paribis; all else is no longer equal, there's a new incentive structure in place.


Remember, these are social "rule of thumb" "laws" we're talking about here, not natural laws of physics.  Maybe this is some weird situation where there was the pedagogical equivalent of the $100 bill lying on the ground, and everyone manages to dodge all of the obvious and unobvious ways the attempts to reach the target could backfire or go wrong.


My contention is just that it's still the kind of situation that Goodhart was warning about.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


In contrast, the claim re taking an AP class is that, even when controlling for student quality, it provides students with things -- skills, knowledge, the exposure to college-level expectations -- that themselves make college success more likely.




The specific claim was "controlling for test results", which I would argue is a poor proxy for "controlling for student quality".  "People who take AP classes" is still a heavily selected subset of "high school students".  Even the ones who bombed the test still had teachers and counselors thinking they were a good fit for the class in the first place.  Going back to the diploma example, schools didn't just start off by giving out free high school diplomas.  What they did was lower standards incrementally until we get the situation with grade inflation.  Which feeds into why I think "slapping an AP label on an existing class" is exactly what we will see moving forward.  That AP label is worth an extra 1.0 on a GPA, which will help students when applying to college, which makes the school look better.  And even if every kid in that honors AP class bombs the test, well, bombed tests don't count against you, and the College Board themselves said that taking the class at all helps with college success!  It's not like adding the AP class in AAS is going to add time to the school day; every kid taking that class is taking it instead of some other class.  If that class isn't something like another AP history class, then you're going to be pulling from the kids who were specifically taking honors classes instead of AP classes.




If that is true, then increasing enrollment by members of group X will indeed result in greater success in college for those students.




And in theory, making every kid finish HS will increase literacy and general education.  In the real world, "increasing literacy and general education" is actually very hard (especially when educators are hobbled with ideological bullshit), and gaming the system and targeted statistics is much more achievable.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					


It is absolutely incorrect to say, as you do, that the College Board is using "Being an AP student" as a measure of college success.




Earlier, you cite the College Board saying:




"Research consistently shows that AP students are better prepared for college than students who don’t take AP, regardless of their exam score. They’re more likely to enroll and stay in college, do well in their classes, and graduate in four years."




This is the measure.  The correlation between being an AP student and doing well in college.  So they made a target of "number of AP students", under the assumptions that "being an AP student" causes "doing well in college".  But by making it a target, they change the incentive structure around "becoming an AP student" which means that the old correlation doesn't necessarily hold anymore, and given general trends in the incentives of large organizational structures, that change will probably be in an undesirable direction (probably "more AP students don't do well in college").


An alternative phrasing of Goodhart's Law might be "There are no cost-free optimizations in matured systems.  The very act of attempting an optimization imposes costs elsewhere in the system."  If you want to increase the number of AP students, there will be side-effects somewhere else in the system (because the system consists of people who react to the rules change) that will hamper or ruin the purpose of the increase.  Check the wiki page for the alternative formulations and corollaries, I think the concept quite widely applicable.


On the more general topic of "large organization logic", this is probably driven by someone(s) in management who needs a measurable goal to point to the next time they apply for a promotion, and this is a number whose increase can be justified with facially plausible logic.  Those people probably don't much care if "being an AP student" becomes less predictive of "doing well in college", because that almost certainly won't come up during the VP interview.


				

				

						

							

								
							

						


						
					

				
			


			

	


			
			
				

			
		

	






		

			
			
				Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023
			
		

	

	

	

		
			

			

				

			

		

			


				

					
Disclaimer:  I am generally not a city fan, and probably coming at this from a place of motivated reasoning.  Nevertheless.




The gist of the comment was that whenever you hear somebody talking about how they want to live in a city because of museums, or a symphony orchestra, or lots of rock concerts, etc., what they're really saying is "I want to live next to other smart, cultured, cool people like me". And what they hate about the suburbs isn't so much the lack of those cultural touchstones, as much as it is having to live next to people who are perfectly happy with just a house that has a yard and a garage and a grocery store and a few chain restaurants within an easy drive.




There's some sense in this, if you're talking like Boston or SF, but cities have normies too, a fucking ton of them.  Plus an enormous number of underclass people who are even less nerdy than normies.  If you just want a large enough total number of like-minded people, and you're willing to search out the diamonds in the rough in a massive, alienating metroplex, I guess?  I have friends who commute 40-60 minutes out from the local major city for D&D night.  Traversing NYC might take just as long, and you'll spend all of it packed in a subway with normies instead of isolated in a nice, normie-proof car.  If you can't find a dozen friends in a 500k county, your odds don't seem much better in a 5M city unless you're looking for something super niche; the problem is more likely with you.




and if you're the kind of person who hates suburban normies.




I think this sort of thing is usually projection, and indicates the sort of "I think attending cultural events means I have a personality" hipster whose whining about cities is tiresome.